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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,741
    It's because the liberal government opposes a free-market, self relating economy. Markets have provided their ability to self regulate for decades. Look at things like Underwriters Laboratory and Angie's List. These are private organizations that provide the buying public with information that influences their decisions. Expansive government does not believe we are smart enough to self regulate.

    For counter examples look at child labor, unsafe foods and drugs prior to the regulation of pharmaceuticals and food/water in the country. Natural monopolies and the fallout from railroads and utilities of the same time period. US pre-rural electrification law. Etc.

    Some things can never properly self regulate, like natural monopolies (utilities and things that have no elastic supply and demand, like health care). Some things can. It’s finding the right balance.

    So history is firmly on the side of “no, self regulation sometimes leads to very bad things that never self correct” or if they are self correcting, the process of self correction leaves a lot of people dead.

    Why building codes exist (as someone who does construction, I dislike them, but I also get why they exist).

    Sometimes over regulation is a bad thing, but no regulation or controls is often a lot worse. We have OSHA and workplace safety laws and regulations because of centuries of many employers proving they won’t provide proper employee safety. Sometimes that crap goes way too far. I’d rather they take crap too far in the name of safety sometimes then not far enough most of the time leaving people maimed or dead.

    Just saying.

    Free market is a pipe dream. As much as I’d LIKE it to work that way, it fails in many ways. Just like complete socialist control of markets fails. Just in different ways. As with almost anything in life the best way for the vast majority of people is somewhere in the middle.
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    Lazarus, I'm a libertarian, but not the variety that thinks there should be no government or government regulation. I have no problem with the government banning the addition of a known carcinogen to a carbonated beverage, but I am totally opposed to an authoritarian nanny state that dictates how much of a carbonated beverage can be sold to a person at a convenience store. However, your statement that the free-market does not do a good job of regulating itself is not correct.

    Did you know that some of the best regulations out there grew from the free-market private sector self-regulating, including the building codes you mentioned? For example, the vast majority of the fire codes in this country and a growing amount around the world come from the private sector; from an organization known as the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). Electrical wiring standards also come from the NFPA. The vast majority of the building codes that you refer to come from a private organization known as the International Code Council, author of the International Building Code that most locations in the US use as their own.

    Quality manufacturing and service standards don't come from some uber-government agency. They come from the International Standards Organization (ISO). The free-market incorporates ISO standards as self-regulation. Free-market businesses flaunt their ISO certifications to let other free-market businesses and individual consumers know that products and services come from plants that meet quality standards. When I promote Canik pistols to customers, one of the things I tell them is that those pistols are made in an ISO-9001 certified plant in Turkey. Individual consumers in a free-market economy also do a great job of self-regulating. Anyone that shops on Amazon or eBay know this because they make purchase decisions based on feedback from their fellow consumers. Ammunition specs are not from the government either. Safe operating pressures for ammunition are specified by SAAMI, not the government.

    This is somewhat of an aside. Remember the context of the discussion. I'm talking about vast government overreach, such as telling a private organization what it can and cannot do on its own property within the bounds of the law such as telling a body of people such as a church, synagogue, mosque, or secular organization that they, unlike small businesses, cannot authorize people to carry firearms on their property.

    Free-market economy is not a dream. If it was, there would be no such thing as small business, innovation, or success stories. If it wasn't for a free-market economy, you wouldn't have Dell computers since Michael Dell stated his company as a small business. It would all be big conglomerations operating with government approval. If you want to see an example of free-market success in the gun world, look at Hi-Point. This small business, due to free-market economy, has been able to build a steady niche for itself in the realm of affordable, reliable, and well-warranted products. If free-markets were, as you say, pipe dreams, then no gun company the size of Hi-Point could succeed as it has since 1992.

    Interestingly enough, many of the people that want to destroy free-market capitalism are the same people that want to destroy 2A.

    I'm not saying that free-markets are a panacea for all that ails an economy or a nation, but a sound economy will have room for largely unregulated free markets and it will do a good job of regulating them, particularly in today's information age.
     
    Last edited:

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,186
    Anne Arundel County
    Interestingly enough, many of the people that want to destroy free-market capitalism are the same people that want to destroy 2A.
    It's not just 2A that they attack. Some of them lead the charge to nullify the 1st, 4th, and 5th, too. A good example is Sen Feinstein. She's led the fight in the Senate in favor of warrantless wiretapping, and the fight to require all private crypto and computer security mechanisms have backdoor keys for GOV, in addition to her crusade against private firearms ownership.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,741
    Lazarus, I'm a libertarian, but not the variety that thinks there should be no government or government regulation. I have no problem with the government banning the addition of a known carcinogen to a carbonated beverage, but I am totally opposed to an authoritarian nanny state that dictates how much of a carbonated beverage can be sold to a person at a convenience store. However, your statement that the free-market does not do a good job of regulating itself is not correct.

    Did you know that some of the best regulations out there grew from the free-market private sector self-regulating, including the building codes you mentioned? For example, the vast majority of the fire codes in this country and a growing amount around the world come from the private sector; from an organization known as the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). Electrical wiring standards also come from the NFPA. The vast majority of the building codes that you refer to come from a private organization known as the International Code Council, author of the International Building Code that most locations in the US use as their own.

    Quality manufacturing and service standards don't come from some uber-government agency. They come from the International Standards Organization (ISO). The free-market incorporates ISO standards as self-regulation. Free-market businesses flaunt their ISO certifications to let other free-market businesses and individual consumers know that products and services come from plants that meet quality standards. When I promote Canik pistols to customers, one of the things I tell them is that those pistols are made in an ISO-9001 certified plant in Turkey. Individual consumers in a free-market economy also do a great job of self-regulating. Anyone that shops on Amazon or eBay know this because they make purchase decisions based on feedback from their fellow consumers. Ammunition specs are not from the government either. Safe operating pressures for ammunition are specified by SAAMI, not the government.

    This is somewhat of an aside. Remember the context of the discussion. I'm talking about vast government overreach, such as telling a private organization what it can and cannot do on its own property within the bounds of the law such as telling a body of people such as a church, synagogue, mosque, or secular organization that they, unlike small businesses, cannot authorize people to carry firearms on their property.

    Free-market economy is not a dream. If it was, there would be no such thing as small business, innovation, or success stories. If it wasn't for a free-market economy, you wouldn't have Dell computers since Michael Dell stated his company as a small business. It would all be big conglomerations operating with government approval. If you want to see an example of free-market success in the gun world, look at Hi-Point. This small business, due to free-market economy, has been able to build a steady niche for itself in the realm of affordable, reliable, and well-warranted products. If free-markets were, as you say, pipe dreams, then no gun company the size of Hi-Point could succeed as it has since 1992.

    Interestingly enough, many of the people that want to destroy free-market capitalism are the same people that want to destroy 2A.

    I'm not saying that free-markets are a panacea for all that ails an economy or a nation, but a sound economy will have room for largely unregulated free markets and it will do a good job of regulating them, particularly in today's information age.

    And yet building codes themselves came from government regulation originally and can be traced back to Ancient Rome and Greece. It wasn’t until fairly recently that it was private orgnizations that have mostly taken on developing them, but it is still government who chooses if they are to be enforced.

    I agree a free market approach is often the best way to go. However our country has never been unlimited free market and when it was closer to that during the late 1800s it was a much worse off place. I think the pendulum has generally swung too far in the opposite direction for a lot of years. As you’ve mentioned a lot of times government telling private parties what they can and cannot do on or with their property.

    I was just trying to point out the government does have a role. At least if we don’t want to become a S-hole country.
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    And yet building codes themselves came from government regulation originally and can be traced back to Ancient Rome and Greece. It wasn’t until fairly recently that it was private orgnizations that have mostly taken on developing them, but it is still government who chooses if they are to be enforced.



    I agree a free market approach is often the best way to go. However our country has never been unlimited free market and when it was closer to that during the late 1800s it was a much worse off place. I think the pendulum has generally swung too far in the opposite direction for a lot of years. As you’ve mentioned a lot of times government telling private parties what they can and cannot do on or with their property.



    I was just trying to point out the government does have a role. At least if we don’t want to become a S-hole country.



    I totally agree with your final assessment in the last paragraph.
     

    Abacab

    Member
    Sep 10, 2009
    2,644
    MD
    It has turned into open season on guns this session. I can't remember ever seeing this many bills.
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    It has turned into open season on guns this session. I can't remember ever seeing this many bills.



    It's the natural by-product of a country that has such a large faction driven by emotions that could care less about the rule of law unless it nourishes their emotions. That's why they are comfortable with a soft tyranny.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,767

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    33,278
    The MSI Legislative Tracker looks great on the website, but when I try to print , it looks like crap, and essentially unusable .
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    33,278
    HB1302 , aka Demanding Moms Bill has a summary, but no Text on the MGA webpage ?!?

    What's up with that ?

    Any other links to text ?


    ******* NOTICE ************

    Just from the summary, this Bill is substantially different from previous press releases , Rally speaches , and personal conversations with MDA representives !

    Previously represented as only applying post CONVICTION, now applies to protective orders.
     

    zoostation

    , ,
    Moderator
    Jan 28, 2007
    22,857
    Abingdon
    HB1302 , aka Demanding Moms Bill has a summary, but no Text on the MGA webpage ?!?

    What's up with that ?

    Any other links to text ?


    ******* NOTICE ************

    Just from the summary, this Bill is substantially different from previous press releases , Rally speaches , and personal conversations with MDA representives !

    Previously represented as only applying post CONVICTION, now applies to protective orders.

    Looks like another copy of a bill some other liberal hellhole states are trying to pass that lets any relative with a grudge do down and swear someone is a danger to themselves and have all their guns seized before they even get a chance to be heard. Of course if it's all BS the respondent gets a hearing within two weeks, and it will only take them 6-12 months to get their guns back, or maybe never if they live in the city.

    I had a crazy relative who hated me and would have perjured himself in a second and done this to me. He hated me because he wanted to come live with us after he lost another job and had nowhere to go and there was no way I was subjecting my family to his violent instability. Tried to get me fired at work with a bunch of crazy ******** he called up with, stalked us in person and by phone, the whole nine yards. Had this route been available to him back then I have no doubt he would have taken it. And any claim by a bill sponsor that liars are subject to perjury prosecution is a joke. I don't know if there has ever been one perjury prosecution ever in the state for falsities on a protective order application. And crazies and turds don't care anyway. They know the state has to be able to prove they were lying. And how are you going to do that on a he-said she-said incident.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    33,278
    Yep.

    But my main point was Demanding Moms destroying their efforts to appear new & improved , kinder & gentler , and significantly different from MPGV .
     

    GutPile

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 4, 2016
    3,284
    Am I reading this right? 3 years in prison for possessing a standard capacity magazine? Man that for sale sign on my house went up quick.
     

    Omega21

    Active Member
    Nov 27, 2010
    514
    Traveling MD
    That thing may deserve it's own thread. Hory Sheet!

    Text>>> http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2018RS/bills/hb/hb0991f.pdf

    In the text it states: "Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, a person who violates this subtitle is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both."

    How can you be sent to jail for a misdemeanor? I thought a misdemeanor was not punishable with jail time.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,741
    In the text it states: "Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, a person who violates this subtitle is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both."

    How can you be sent to jail for a misdemeanor? I thought a misdemeanor was not punishable with jail time.

    Heck no. On a federal level and many states a misdemeanor is usually a crime with a punishment of no more than a year in prison. MD though has no real delineation on what is a misdemeanor or a felony other than they call some crimes one and some the other. Generally misdemeanors have shorter maximum sentences, but IIRC there are a few misdemeanors that have sentences of up to 7-8 years and a few felonies that are a maximum of 5 years.

    Few MD crimes have maxes off less than 3 years. Which also means in MD if you are convicted of most crimes, you are a prohibited person even if typical sentences are probation for first time offenders and even 2nd offenders probably wouldn’t face more than a few months in prison at worst.

    Why I think at a minimum statutes need to change that for non-violent crimes it is your actual prison sentence that matters, NOT the POSSIBLE maximum sentence in what determines if you are a prohibited person.
     

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