Dallas PD investigation Sig P320 safety

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  • tkd4life

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 10, 2010
    1,737
    Southern Maryland
    So for those interested, I weighed the factory trigger and an Apex curved trigger and the Apex was actually heavier. The factory trigger weighed in at about 16.5 grams while the Apex weighed in at about 17.2 grams. The factory trigger pull was about 7.5 lbs and with the Apex it was about 5.75 lbs. I have no intention of dropping my gun on the ground to see if it will go off, but it isn't unreasonable to think that the Apex trigger makes this issue worse. I'm standing by to see what Sig does for the logistics.
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    You guys realize that revolvers used to be carried with a dead cylinder before things like transfer bar right? Dropping a fixed firing pin revolver could lead to a discharge.

    It's pretty sad that people are such fanboys that they are willing to carry a gun that can discharge when dropped. There is nothing special about the drop. The design of the gun is the problem. Even a dead blow hammer hitting the rear of the slide will set the weapon off.

    As Mopar said (which is 100% correct), this whole thing popped off because of the gun firing when it was dropped, THEN other people started doing testing. This isn't some conspiracy towards SIG, its people doing testing. I believe Mopar is spot on and SIG knew because their "fix" was all ready to go.


    Sales over safety
     

    DC-W

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    25,290
    ️‍
    attachment.php

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

    :lol2::lol2:
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,370

    trigger goes back.jpg

    so the hammer to the back... basically the same thing happens as when you drop it. The trigger moves rearward enough to disengage the striker block and the striker can slip forward to fire. A fix to keep the trigger from disengaging the striker block should still be effective against this type of discharge...although I'm not wild about the striker slipping so easily. I'm imagining that with the "fix" the striker could slip forward off the sear, be blocked by the striker block, but the gun wouldn't fire when you need it to.

    I wonder how much beretta is high fiving each other for the APX being basically the only popular modular competitor to the 320 right about now.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,029
    Elkton, MD

    This topic is way more involved than I can fully contribute to but here is my viewpoint as a Gunsmith.

    One should never carry a firearm that has the capibility to fire if the trigger is not pulled.

    This takes on several aspects because poor maintenance and using junk lubricants can lead to parts gumming up and not working as intended. Its not always the design of the gun at fault, it can be the user that causes the faulire.

    For example the Remington 700 trigger recalls fro a few decades ago were to blame on poor maintenance and users messing with the triggers that were not qualified. It's almost impossible to design a fire control group or safety thant cant be redered useless by bad lubricants or owners messing with them.

    Single actions half cock were a safety in a sense but a poor one. The half cock notch can wear and still release the hammer.

    The main purpose on this S.A. guns were to retract cylinder stop so the cylinder could spin to use the loading gate.

    If you drop a revolver hammer first with a fixed firing pin and no internal safety it will fire if the chamber has a live round. That's why they carried a dead chamber on the cylinder.

    Even some seei autos are unsafe if carried with a live round. If there is no striker or firing pin safety it is possible for the round to discharge if dropped. It all depends on the design. This is likely why some militaries don't carry certain pistols with a chambered round. For example the Makarov has a floating firing pin. If carried with a chambered round and safety off, the gun can fire if dropped due to the firing pin momentum.

    Early M16 had very heavy floating firing pins that could set of ammo with soft primers due to weight/inertia. They changed the design.

    I carry Glocks because the trigger won't move unless I move it. It also has a striker safety that prevents the striker from moving forward enough to ignite a round unless the trigger is fully forward. Using a Glock with no external safety also means I also need to inspect my holsters to ensure the holster isn't worn so it will allow the trigger to move then holstering. I need to be sure that I need to understand that lots of luck ricant or water in the striker channel can make the fun fail to fire.

    It all depends on the gun and understanding it's limitations.
     

    MikeTF

    Ultimate Member
    This topic is way more involved than I can fully contribute to but here is my viewpoint as a Gunsmith.

    One should never carry a firearm that has the capibility to fire if the trigger is not pulled.

    This takes on several aspects because poor maintenance and using junk lubricants can lead to parts gumming up and not working as intended. Its not always the design of the gun at fault, it can be the user that causes the faulire.

    For example the Remington 700 trigger recalls fro a few decades ago were to blame on poor maintenance and users messing with the triggers that were not qualified. It's almost impossible to design a fire control group or safety thant cant be redered useless by bad lubricants or owners messing with them.

    Single actions half cock were a safety in a sense but a poor one. The half cock notch can wear and still release the hammer.

    The main purpose on this S.A. guns were to retract cylinder stop so the cylinder could spin to use the loading gate.

    If you drop a revolver hammer first with a fixed firing pin and no internal safety it will fire if the chamber has a live round. That's why they carried a dead chamber on the cylinder.

    Even some seei autos are unsafe if carried with a live round. If there is no striker or firing pin safety it is possible for the round to discharge if dropped. It all depends on the design. This is likely why some militaries don't carry certain pistols with a chambered round. For example the Makarov has a floating firing pin. If carried with a chambered round and safety off, the gun can fire if dropped due to the firing pin momentum.

    Early M16 had very heavy floating firing pins that could set of ammo with soft primers due to weight/inertia. They changed the design.

    I carry Glocks because the trigger won't move unless I move it. It also has a striker safety that prevents the striker from moving forward enough to ignite a round unless the trigger is fully forward. Using a Glock with no external safety also means I also need to inspect my holsters to ensure the holster isn't worn so it will allow the trigger to move then holstering. I need to be sure that I need to understand that lots of luck ricant or water in the striker channel can make the fun fail to fire.

    It all depends on the gun and understanding it's limitations.
    Wow!
    Thank you. This is a wealth of information.

    One of the things people like about the DA/SA SIGs with the exposed hammers is that they can put their thumbs on the hammer when they reholster the pistol as an additional safety precaution. When you do that, the trigger cannot be pulled unless the force on the trigger exceeds the force that can be put on the hammer.

    The DA action trigger pull is longer and does require more force than that of the strikerfire Glock (I've compared my wife's 17L to my P228), so there is an additional level of safety, should someone not use their thumb.

    Are people still being taught to put their thumbs on the hammer of hammer fired pistols when they re-holster?
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,370
    This topic is way more involved than I can fully contribute to but here is my viewpoint as a Gunsmith.

    One should never carry a firearm that has the capibility to fire if the trigger is not pulled.

    This takes on several aspects because poor maintenance and using junk lubricants can lead to parts gumming up and not working as intended. Its not always the design of the gun at fault, it can be the user that causes the faulire.

    For example the Remington 700 trigger recalls fro a few decades ago were to blame on poor maintenance and users messing with the triggers that were not qualified. It's almost impossible to design a fire control group or safety thant cant be redered useless by bad lubricants or owners messing with them.

    Single actions half cock were a safety in a sense but a poor one. The half cock notch can wear and still release the hammer.

    The main purpose on this S.A. guns were to retract cylinder stop so the cylinder could spin to use the loading gate.

    If you drop a revolver hammer first with a fixed firing pin and no internal safety it will fire if the chamber has a live round. That's why they carried a dead chamber on the cylinder.

    Even some seei autos are unsafe if carried with a live round. If there is no striker or firing pin safety it is possible for the round to discharge if dropped. It all depends on the design. This is likely why some militaries don't carry certain pistols with a chambered round. For example the Makarov has a floating firing pin. If carried with a chambered round and safety off, the gun can fire if dropped due to the firing pin momentum.

    Early M16 had very heavy floating firing pins that could set of ammo with soft primers due to weight/inertia. They changed the design.

    I carry Glocks because the trigger won't move unless I move it. It also has a striker safety that prevents the striker from moving forward enough to ignite a round unless the trigger is fully forward. Using a Glock with no external safety also means I also need to inspect my holsters to ensure the holster isn't worn so it will allow the trigger to move then holstering. I need to be sure that I need to understand that lots of luck ricant or water in the striker channel can make the fun fail to fire.

    It all depends on the gun and understanding it's limitations.
    There was/is also the resting notch between cylinders for sa revolvers for carrying. Kindve a cool creative way around the carrying issue.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    Glock is being a Sore loser and yet Glock doesn't give a rats A$$ about supporting the "Gun Movement" or against the Anti's, were SIG does to a degree...

    So Glock acting arrogant looses my support in anyway shape or form...never liked Glock anyway JMO.

    Mike and I will buy extra glocks to cover the fact that they lost your support even though you've been a glock hater forever. Your support amounts to th Lb I lost this morning after my coffee but thanks for letting us know you no longer support glock :lol2::lol2:
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,370
    Glock is being a Sore loser and yet Glock doesn't give a rats A$$ about supporting the "Gun Movement" or against the Anti's, were SIG does to a degree...

    So Glock acting arrogant looses my support in anyway shape or form...never liked Glock anyway JMO.

    Glock has been one of the most active gun manufacturers in promoting the 2a and shooting sports in this country.

    https://www.saf.org/glock-makes-significant-donation-to-second-amendment-foundation/

    You can knock glock for a variety of things, but lack of 2a supoorts is not one of them.
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    Mike and I will buy extra glocks to cover the fact that they lost your support even though you've been a glock hater forever. Your support amounts to th Lb I lost this morning after my coffee but thanks for letting us know you no longer support glock 2:2:
     

    frogman68

    товарищ плачевная
    Apr 7, 2013
    8,774
    Still believe this is just hysterics . The 320 passed the required tests , products are built to a standard and that standard was met. There is 500k 320's out there and 4 verified incidents in the field. Statistically I will still carry the 320 I rather have the odd chance of dropping it just right for it to fire than carry a weapon that can explode in my hand when I need it for self defense The hysteria is spreading Apex is now covering their @ss telling people not to use their triggers in the 320

    http://www.apextactical.com/blog/in...ry-regarding-sig-sauer-p320-trigger-products/
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,029
    Elkton, MD
    Still believe this is just hysterics . The 320 passed the required tests , products are built to a standard and that standard was met. There is 500k 320's out there and 4 verified incidents in the field. Statistically I will still carry the 320 I rather have the odd chance of dropping it just right for it to fire than carry a weapon that can explode in my hand when I need it for self defense The hysteria is spreading Apex is now covering their @ss telling people not to use their triggers in the 320

    http://www.apextactical.com/blog/in...ry-regarding-sig-sauer-p320-trigger-products/

    Do you mean the Army Test it passed? That's because they supposedly had the "upgraded trigger". They also have manual safeties.

    A gun should not fire if the trigger isn't depressed, especially when you have no external safety option.
     

    Fox123

    Ultimate Member
    May 21, 2012
    3,923
    Rosedale, MD
    So for those interested, I weighed the factory trigger and an Apex curved trigger and the Apex was actually heavier. The factory trigger weighed in at about 16.5 grams while the Apex weighed in at about 17.2 grams. The factory trigger pull was about 7.5 lbs and with the Apex it was about 5.75 lbs. I have no intention of dropping my gun on the ground to see if it will go off, but it isn't unreasonable to think that the Apex trigger makes this issue worse. I'm standing by to see what Sig does for the logistics.


    It may be where the weight is located.

    If most of the weight is located up near the point of rotation, inertia is not going to have much effect on it.

    The stock trigger has more mass down where the pad of the finger sits (or lower) vs the Apex, which is thin and skinny down at the finger?
     

    frogman68

    товарищ плачевная
    Apr 7, 2013
    8,774
    Do you mean the Army Test it passed? That's because they supposedly had the "upgraded trigger". They also have manual safeties.

    A gun should not fire if the trigger isn't depressed, especially when you have no external safety option.

    It passed the U.S Government test before it went thru the Army tests. Simple way to look at it. Your car's airbag passed the government test for a 30 mph crash , you wreck at 40 mph you think it's the manufacturer who is at fault for your injuries??

    OUCH
     

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