CCW, Magazine capacity, & training

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  • So after watching the video below it got me thinking about my magazine capacity, I recently switched from the SA XDm .45 with 11 +1 to the XDs 9mm that has 7+1 and I carry 2 spare mags. Magazine capacity was a concern when I switched but after seeing this it makes me uncomfortable with the limited round count.

    I have also started to contemplate IWB, OWB, open, or concealed carry as well as carry position. I know everyone has their preference and why I don't nock anyones choice I currently conceal carry IWB and just going slow I can draw and fire in under 3 seconds (I go slow for safety and to build muscle memory I think I could realistically get that to 2 or less if I had to or tried) open carry I'm 1 or under.

    Then it made me feel like I'm not training enough and that it's inadequate, this video led me to a drill I'd never herd of before that would have been perfect with this scenario 22422 drill along with pieing the cab of the truck. Not sure he or anyone would have been able to manage this encounter without getting shot or killed it happened really fast.

    [YT]SPex7KA6xIY[/YT]
     

    THier

    R.I.P.
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 3, 2010
    4,998
    Muscleville
    Here is MY OPINION.

    GOD forbid I ever have to use my edc, I am NOT looking for a gunfight. Unlike a cop, who has a MUCH higher likely hood of being in a gunfight, I want to remove myself and loved ones from a life threatening situation.

    My mag capacity in my S&W .45 shield is "small" I do carry a spare mag, but I dont envision myself in a gunfight. I want to keep my edc as small and light as possible.

    Just MY thoughts and OPINION.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    Sadly, in this state, protecting property is functionally illegal. Had the owner of the truck done anything other than hand over the keys and/or get shot, he could expect a lengthy jail sentence and/or a ruinous civil suit.

    It turns my stomach.

    From what I saw, even if the homeowner had been armed, and done society a favor, he still would have lost in the long run.
     

    travistheone

    Usual Suspect
    Dec 11, 2008
    5,600
    cockeysville
    carry as many rounds in the gun as you will reliably carry. too big means you are likely to leave it at home.

    OWB is fast but AIWB is fastest.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    I'm guessing this guy wasn't packing?
    Regardless..... At 8 seconds, he got his clue to draw, when they turned, drew and went his way. It's right here where you make or break your fight for survival.
    You don't have to be quick, but you do have to get the pistol out and a shot put on 1 guy before they got any closer. If you're trained and confident enough.

    Being behind the bed, you have surprise on your side because it conceals your draw. Problem is, he lost 4 precious seconds holding that bed cover up just staring at those guys. As close as those 2 on the left were next to each other, you would have gotten shots on both of them before they expected it. Well, I would have.

    Not knowing what the far right guy would do(I expect he would have fled). The (safest?) thing to do, would have been to roll to the right behind the side of the truck at the same time running and getting distance between you and the truck/guy. Again, I would suspect the kid wouldn't come after you. They don't like acting alone. They get their nerve from being in numbers.

    There's no specific drill that would help in this situation. It's a shoot, move, shoot scenario. Can't play ring around the rosie around the truck. They can surround you. It's a break contact scenario.

    The best bet for this unarmed guy(and anyone) would to have been to just run away from them as they approached.
     

    herkybird72

    2A Defender
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 1, 2011
    421
    Freedomland,NC
    Sadly, in this state, protecting property is functionally illegal. Had the owner of the truck done anything other than hand over the keys and/or get shot, he could expect a lengthy jail sentence and/or a ruinous civil suit.

    It turns my stomach.

    From what I saw, even if the homeowner had been armed, and done society a favor, he still would have lost in the long run.

    Please let me state first I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. That being said even here in NC protecting just property is a no no. In this case however, I sure would be in fear for my personal safety. I do fully agree with Blaster that the 3 against 1 scenario is a probably losing proposition and I would not draw.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Sadly, in this state, protecting property is functionally illegal. Had the owner of the truck done anything other than hand over the keys and/or get shot, he could expect a lengthy jail sentence and/or a ruinous civil suit.

    It turns my stomach.

    From what I saw, even if the homeowner had been armed, and done society a favor, he still would have lost in the long run.

    3 guns pointed at you, intending to do anything, is self defense. That's not protecting property theft.

    3 guys inside your vehicle trying to steal it and you shoot them, then THAT is lethal force protecting property and is most states is a no no.
     

    Matlack

    Scribe
    Dec 15, 2008
    8,555
    This scenario is not why I have began carrying with a larger magazine capacity. Antifa and BLM and their terrorist activities of attacking people in mobs on the street and even in vehicles and dragging people from their cars and beating them to death. I used to carry 8 + 1. Now I carry 15 + 1, when I can. In the scenario above, there is almost no chance of me surviving. If my kids where in the truck, that is another story. I still dont know how I would react in any scenario, until I am placed in the scenario.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    3 guns pointed at you, intending to do anything, is self defense. That's not protecting property theft.

    3 guys inside your vehicle trying to steal it and you shoot them, then THAT is lethal force protecting property and is most states is a no no.

    There you have it. Guns out, approaching you (and your stuff)? The only reason those guns are out is to leverage the threat they present to someone else. Responding to that threat, that signaled willingness to kill you, is self defense. Marching out of the house with a gun to deal with car thieves isn’t the same thing.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    3 guns pointed at you, intending to do anything, is self defense. That's not protecting property theft.

    3 guys inside your vehicle trying to steal it and you shoot them, then THAT is lethal force protecting property and is most states is a no no.

    Not my point. In both your examples the person defending themselves has a slim chance of having a normal life ever again because:. IF they survive the gunfight and IF the criminal justice system doesn't side with the didntdonuffins then he WILL get sued into bankruptcy by the youths and/or their families, to the point that letting them have the truck to begin with (even if insurance doesn't cover it) is a cheaper option than the lawyer fees and wage garnishment.

    All of which emboldens and reinforces this behavior. When the potential thieves know that at worst they will get a PBJ and get released back into the wild, and the potential victims have to weigh their entire future before protecting themselves, it creates a helpless society who can do nothing except be fodder for those who have nothing to lose.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Not my point. In both your examples the person defending themselves has a slim chance of having a normal life ever again because:. IF they survive the gunfight and IF the criminal justice system doesn't side with the didntdonuffins then he WILL get sued into bankruptcy by the youths and/or their families, to the point that letting them have the truck to begin with (even if insurance doesn't cover it) is a cheaper option than the lawyer fees and wage garnishment.

    All of which emboldens and reinforces this behavior. When the potential thieves know that at worst they will get a PBJ and get released back into the wild, and the potential victims have to weigh their entire future before protecting themselves, it creates a helpless society who can do nothing except be fodder for those who have nothing to lose.

    All of what you said means absolutely squat when faced with this situation. True or not. Society is what it is.
    Well, let's not fight for our lives just in case we get sued. :rolleyes:

    You go ahead and consider all of this. Myself and others will figure out how to try and survive.

    I have carry insurance.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    All of what you said means absolutely squat when faced with this situation. True or not. Society is what it is.
    Well, let's not fight for our lives just in case we get sued. :rolleyes:

    You go ahead and consider all of this. Myself and others will figure out how to try and survive.

    I have carry insurance.

    Again, not my point. I am lamenting the state of our society, not suggesting a lack of self defense.

    As far as fighting for one's life: just playing devil's advocate, but the video shows no one dying.

    I am skeptical of carry insurance. If they are like health or car insurance, then they will look for any reason to NOT cover you.
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    There isn't much winning here. If he saw the threat and got one suspect, you'd hope the others run away. Magazine capacity and extra mags aren't going to let you win that gun battle. But all you could do is get rounds on target while they were on the other side of the truck and take off running.

    As for "defending your property"....if you are pointing guns at me, I'm going to assume you are a threat to me and others and will deal with it. I would not be defending property at that point. Even in this state, it would be a justified shooting.

    With so many higher capacity firearms on the market, I do not know why anyone would carry something less than 10 rounds. So many ways to get into that 10-15 round range and have a very comfortable carry situation and a usable sight radius.

    The reality is there isn't an easy way to conceal extra magazines. I have started to carry a spare 15 rounder to the 12 rounder in the gun. It's a PITA and I'm not getting to it quickly if I need it.

    As stated...you likely aren't going to win in this shooting and sometimes to best use of a firearms is to remain concealed. There would be a very short window at potential success in this situation. I'd guess many here aren't capable of putting rounds on target to stop three armed folks who essentially have the drop on you. Best bet would be they aren't willing to fight and take off running after a short fire fight.
     
    Here is MY OPINION.

    GOD forbid I ever have to use my edc, I am NOT looking for a gunfight. Unlike a cop, who has a MUCH higher likely hood of being in a gunfight, I want to remove myself and loved ones from a life threatening situation.

    My mag capacity in my S&W .45 shield is "small" I do carry a spare mag, but I dont envision myself in a gunfight. I want to keep my edc as small and light as possible.

    Just MY thoughts and OPINION.

    This was my exact thought then I went to the XDs but I'm now thinking that the gun round capacity is likely not adequate enough for this task.

    Sadly, in this state, protecting property is functionally illegal. Had the owner of the truck done anything other than hand over the keys and/or get shot, he could expect a lengthy jail sentence and/or a ruinous civil suit.

    It turns my stomach.

    From what I saw, even if the homeowner had been armed, and done society a favor, he still would have lost in the long run.

    They met Opportunity, Jeopardy, & intent for self defense in this case IMO, don't care about the truck so much but they have clearly threatened his life.

    carry as many rounds in the gun as you will reliably carry. too big means you are likely to leave it at home.

    OWB is fast but AIWB is fastest.

    What is AIWB Appendix Inside the Waist Band? I usually carry around the 4 o'clock position but have ben contemplating moving it maybe even the Appendix carry

    I'm guessing this guy wasn't packing?
    Regardless..... At 8 seconds, he got his clue to draw, when they turned, drew and went his way. It's right here where you make or break your fight for survival.
    You don't have to be quick, but you do have to get the pistol out and a shot put on 1 guy before they got any closer. If you're trained and confident enough.

    Being behind the bed, you have surprise on your side because it conceals your draw. Problem is, he lost 4 precious seconds holding that bed cover up just staring at those guys. As close as those 2 on the left were next to each other, you would have gotten shots on both of them before they expected it. Well, I would have.

    Not knowing what the far right guy would do(I expect he would have fled). The (safest?) thing to do, would have been to roll to the right behind the side of the truck at the same time running and getting distance between you and the truck/guy. Again, I would suspect the kid wouldn't come after you. They don't like acting alone. They get their nerve from being in numbers.

    There's no specific drill that would help in this situation. It's a shoot, move, shoot scenario. Can't play ring around the rosie around the truck. They can surround you. It's a break contact scenario.

    The best bet for this unarmed guy(and anyone) would to have been to just run away from them as they approached.

    No I don't think he was armed, and he did see it coming and yes the bed would have concealed his draw enough to where he could have made the 1st shot and possibly tipped the fight in his favor. As far as drills for this I was referring to this 22422 drill

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=22422+train

    You could have 1 million rounds on you. No one is going to win force on force facing 1 against 3.

    It is not good but not a guaranteed loss and even a win will likely have him shot, I'm guessing once lead flies they try to break contact.

    Give up the truck and run for cover.

    He tried to flee and was chased off camera and beaten.

    This scenario is not why I have began carrying with a larger magazine capacity. Antifa and BLM and their terrorist activities of attacking people in mobs on the street and even in vehicles and dragging people from their cars and beating them to death. I used to carry 8 + 1. Now I carry 15 + 1, when I can. In the scenario above, there is almost no chance of me surviving. If my kids where in the truck, that is another story. I still dont know how I would react in any scenario, until I am placed in the scenario.

    this is why I'm reconsidering my EDC choice I think I'm going back to the XDm
     
    Last edited:

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    That drill is all tacticool, but no one is shooting 3 armed people in front of each other force on force. 1 gun, 3 knives maybe.
    Many drills aren't realistic, but they do help you build shooting skills, but you don't learn tactics from them.
    Get shots off while breaking contact as far as possible. That's really the winner here.
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    That drill is all tacticool, but no one is shooting 3 armed people in front of each other force on force. 1 gun, 3 knives maybe.
    Many drills aren't realistic, but they do help you build shooting skills, but you don't learn tactics from them.
    Get shots off while breaking contact as far as possible. That's really the winner here.

    Not like you'd know in real time, but the fact the dude has an AK pistol could also play a part in the response. Out manned and way out gunned.
     

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