Rehaif v. United States

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  • Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    Rehaif v. US is being heard today at the Supreme Court.

    17-9560

    Under federal law, persons of various statuses are prohibited from "possess[ing] in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition." 18 U.S.C.§ 922(g).One .such status is being an alien "illegally or unlawfully in the United States." 18 U.S.C.§ 922(g)(5)(A).

    The penalty for violating § 922(g) is found in 18 U.S.C.§ 924, which provides "Whoever knowingly violates subsection ...(g) ...of section 922 shall be fined, ...imprisoned, ...or both. 18 U.S.C.§ 924(a)(2).

    The question presented is:
    Whether the "knowingly" provision of § 924(a)(2) applies to both the possession and status elements of a § 922(g) crime, as has been urged by then-Judge, now Justice Gorsuch,

    Interesting that an illegal alien is seeking a remedy for possessing ammunition.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    This is not a 2A case. This is really a case about the interpretation of statue at issue and appropriate jury instruction. It's a question of whether the statue requires the defendant to know he/she was in the country illegally.

    The defendant actually admitted he knew he was in the country illegally, so it seems to me no matter what the court says, he broke the law. He may get a new trial out of it, hard to say.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    How could you not know you were in the country illegally?

    Point is though: if "knowing" is an element, then the prosecution has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. IIRC In this case the judge said the prosecution did not have to prove it and did not include it in the jury instructions. I am sure ever prosecutor would love to use the "how could you not know" same as they would like to use "if you have nothing to hide make a full statement" - but you do not have an obligation to make the prosecutions job easy.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    This is not a 2A case. This is really a case about the interpretation of statue at issue and appropriate jury instruction. It's a question of whether the statue requires the defendant to know he/she was in the country illegally.

    The defendant actually admitted he knew he was in the country illegally, so it seems to me no matter what the court says, he broke the law. He may get a new trial out of it, hard to say.

    This has application in places like DC, where one cannot possess ammo without a DC permit/registration.

    If you didn't know you broke the law, you shouldn't be penalized.
     

    CrueChief

    Cocker Dad/RIP Bella
    Apr 3, 2009
    2,999
    Napolis-ish
    Overstay on a visa or have your paperwork turn out to be invalid?

    This is an overt act which I would know to be illegal. And what paper work could one possess that would make one legal if valid and illegal in not? Having never travel outside the country I don't know what that entails.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    How could you not know you were in the country illegally?

    A lot don’t. In some cases visas can be revoked or expired and the person doesn’t realize it for example. How often do people drive with expired registrations and not realize it?

    The vast majority know they are here illegally, but I am just pointing out sometimes someone truthfully and legitimately doesn’t know.
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    I don't get Kedem's line of argument. He says over and over, in different ways, that the fact that the issue would only affect a tiny number of people is a reason for SCOTUS to not overturn 11CA's opinion. IMHO if even one person's rights have been violated, and the application of the law is unconstitutional, that should be reason to overturn.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,365
    SoMD / West PA
    Reversed and Remanded

    This is a case about whether, to prosecute someone for violating a federal law that makes it illegal to be an undocumented immigrant with a firearm, the government has to prove that the immigrant knew he was in the country illegally or whether the government just has to show that he know that he had a gun. The answer is that the government has to show both: "To convict a defendant, the Government therefore must show that the defendant knew he possessed a firearm and also that he knew he had the relevant status [not in the country legally] when he possessed it."

    https://www.scotusblog.com/
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    This case is more complex than I thought.

    Here is an explanation.
    https://reason.com/2019/01/15/many-foreign-tourists-and-most-foreign-s/

    If you take visiting foreign nationals to the range you should read the link because according to The Volokh Conspiracy some you can take and some you can't.

    That IS complicated. But I'm still vague on a central point: what if your guest does NOT rent a gun or buy ammunition, and is simply attending your shooting, and is allowed by you to handle/shoot your gun while in direct supervision? Does that equate to possession in the same way that a rental does? Does visiting private property to plink carry all of the same concerns? So many ways to become an inadvertent criminal.
     

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