New AR Owner Questions

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  • Mar 6, 2019
    67
    The last time I shot a similar rifle was back in ‘05 when I qualified with an M-16A1 that kicked little more than a bolt action .22LR. I can field strip and clean em but troubleshooting is beyond my knowledge. I know the 16” AR is supposed to kick a little more but I’m getting probably twice the recoil of an M-16. Cases are being ejected at 1:00. Cases are dented during ejection. It sounds like the bolt or buffer is bottoming out on recoil. It sounds like there are 2-3 clanks of the buffer weights after rebound. The rifle cycles Winchester .223 and 5.56 rounds fine and I had zero failure to anythings. I’m guessing my entry level DelTon has an enlarged gas port and it’s overgassed, but I just shot and cleaned M-16s before and have never had to troubleshoot. After looking at ammo, should I be looking at buffers and adjustable gas blocks or am I overthinking things? Is what I’m experiencing normal on ARs and it was just hidden with the closed stock, longer gas system, and heavier rifle?
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Deltons tend to be a little gassy.

    The buffer is supposed to bottom out and rattle, but it's more obvious when the weapon is dry. Are you lubing it generously?

    If you want it to be more comfortable you'll have to restrict gas or add buffer weight. The A5 system is great as are Restricted Port BRT Gas Tubes.

    Adjustable Gas is likely not an option if it has a front sight tower.
     

    KYtoMD

    Member
    Mar 23, 2017
    59
    MD
    The last time I shot a similar rifle was back in ‘05 when I qualified with an M-16A1 that kicked little more than a bolt action .22LR. I can field strip and clean em but troubleshooting is beyond my knowledge. I know the 16” AR is supposed to kick a little more but I’m getting probably twice the recoil of an M-16. Cases are being ejected at 1:00. Cases are dented during ejection. It sounds like the bolt or buffer is bottoming out on recoil. It sounds like there are 2-3 clanks of the buffer weights after rebound. The rifle cycles Winchester .223 and 5.56 rounds fine and I had zero failure to anythings. I’m guessing my entry level DelTon has an enlarged gas port and it’s overgassed, but I just shot and cleaned M-16s before and have never had to troubleshoot. After looking at ammo, should I be looking at buffers and adjustable gas blocks or am I overthinking things? Is what I’m experiencing normal on ARs and it was just hidden with the closed stock, longer gas system, and heavier rifle?

    Your current AR has a 16" with a carbine length gas system, which leads to a system that is significantly overgassed. The M16 you qualified with had a 20" barrel with a rifle length gas system, which is not nearly as overgassed of a system.

    Carbine length gas systems (gas port at 7 inches) were really designed for 12.5 to 14.5" barrels, and when used with a 16" barrel leads to excessive dwell time and overgassing. There has been a more recent trend by some of the mid-tier and high-end manufacturers to use mid-length (9" gas port distance) systems in 16" barrels or rifle-length (12" gas port) in 18" barrels, but many cheaper ARs still use carbine-length gas systems. Of course, one also has to factor in the size of the gas port itself, but a simple rule is that 16" barrels with carbine gas systems tend to be very overgassed. This is the reason you feel the buffer "bottoming out" quite hard in the buffer tube. Your ejection pattern at 1:00 is another indicator of overgassing.

    The proper way to solve the issue would be to get a new barrel with a mid-length gas system or to use an adjustable gas block, but both require some DIY on your end, or the help of a gunsmith. The easiest things you could do to reduce felt recoil would be to use a heavier buffer spring (e.g. Sprinco Blue or even Orange) or use a heavier buffer (H2 buffer has 2 tungsten weights and is 4.6 Oz, whereas the standard buffer in your Delton is 3.0 Oz). Both of these things will also delay bolt unlocking slightly, which is a good thing as early bolt unlocking means the rifle is attempting to extract a brass case that is still expanded against the chamber walls.
     
    Mar 6, 2019
    67
    Deltons tend to be a little gassy.

    The buffer is supposed to bottom out and rattle, but it's more obvious when the weapon is dry. Are you lubing it generously?


    Good to know it’s supposed to sound like that and bottom out. It was leaking a little lube through pins the in the lower as I fired it. I was a little extra generous and everything was still well lubed after 120 rounds.


    There has been a more recent trend by some of the mid-tier and high-end manufacturers to use mid-length (9" gas port distance) systems in 16" barrels or rifle-length (12" gas port) in 18" barrels, but many cheaper ARs still use carbine-length gas systems.

    The proper way to solve the issue would be to get a new barrel with a mid-length gas system or to use an adjustable gas block, but both require some DIY on your end, or the help of a gunsmith. The easiest things you could do to reduce felt recoil would be to use a heavier buffer spring (e.g. Sprinco Blue or even Orange) or use a heavier buffer


    I have a mid length system. I have an H3 on the way so I can tune the weights and troubleshoot. In the end I’d prefer an adjustable gas block fix if it is overgassed. In my mind the less gas that gets recycled the better for the rifle, but I am far from knowledgeable on the topic.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    You are not getting twice the recoil of an m16, and the m16 does not kick "little more than a bolt action 22". I have a bolt action 22. And other guns to compare it to. An AR of the same weight (7.4lbs) will have the exact same recoil as an M16 on semi, its physics. About 3lbs. "Felt" recoil is your experience and has a lot to do with technique and ergonomics. The Del Ton and M16 are both about 7.4 lbs. If your M16 was 8.5 lbs that would absorb a little recoil (about 14%).

    Your memory is off, and you should consider the possibility you also dont remember how to shoulder the rifle (shotgun/rifle technique accounts for 70% of "felt" recoil). I'm am just kidding, but seriously: technique, ergonomics..

    Before you tinker with the gas or buffer, I'd look into a stock or muzzle brake. Its possible that your m16 had more ergonomic stock for you, maybe with a better rubber butt pad that enabled you to shoulder it better (or just get the same stock you had). Get an upgraded one. It's also possible your m16 had a compensator or muzzle brake. A brake will slow down the recoil and stop muzzle rise.

    I dont know what optic / sights you are using, but craning your neck for an improperly fit optic can do it too. But an optic also adds weight and the rifle absorbs more recoil.
     

    PorP

    Active Member
    Mar 11, 2016
    197
    Your current AR has a 16" with a carbine length gas system, which leads to a system that is significantly overgassed. The M16 you qualified with had a 20" barrel with a rifle length gas system, which is not nearly as overgassed of a system.

    Carbine length gas systems (gas port at 7 inches) were really designed for 12.5 to 14.5" barrels, and when used with a 16" barrel leads to excessive dwell time and overgassing. There has been a more recent trend by some of the mid-tier and high-end manufacturers to use mid-length (9" gas port distance) systems in 16" barrels or rifle-length (12" gas port) in 18" barrels, but many cheaper ARs still use carbine-length gas systems. Of course, one also has to factor in the size of the gas port itself, but a simple rule is that 16" barrels with carbine gas systems tend to be very overgassed. This is the reason you feel the buffer "bottoming out" quite hard in the buffer tube. Your ejection pattern at 1:00 is another indicator of overgassing.

    The proper way to solve the issue would be to get a new barrel with a mid-length gas system or to use an adjustable gas block, but both require some DIY on your end, or the help of a gunsmith. The easiest things you could do to reduce felt recoil would be to use a heavier buffer spring (e.g. Sprinco Blue or even Orange) or use a heavier buffer (H2 buffer has 2 tungsten weights and is 4.6 Oz, whereas the standard buffer in your Delton is 3.0 Oz). Both of these things will also delay bolt unlocking slightly, which is a good thing as early bolt unlocking means the rifle is attempting to extract a brass case that is still expanded against the chamber walls.

    Guess you beat me to it. The delton kit has a real cheap spring. I would take this guys advice, and even if it's not the names listed, most spring/ buffer kites will be better than what delton provides.

    I would also take danb's advice and get a decent muzzle break and buttstock. I don't think I would do padded at 5.56 but that's a personal opinion and me not wanting my 5.56 to feel like a 22lr.i put one on my 7.62x39 and regret it.

    All in all it might be around $100 in upgrades depending on what you buy.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Guess you beat me to it. The delton kit has a real cheap spring. I would take this guys advice, and even if it's not the names listed, most spring/ buffer kites will be better than what delton provides.

    I would also take danb's advice and get a decent muzzle break and buttstock. I don't think I would do padded at 5.56 but that's a personal opinion and me not wanting my 5.56 to feel like a 22lr.i put one on my 7.62x39 and regret it.

    All in all it might be around $100 in upgrades depending on what you buy.

    Well, I hate the feel of hard plastic on my shoulder because I am a diva. YMMV
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    If you are going to put another muzzle device on, I would check out TTAGs shootouts where they compare muzzle devices. You can find one that fits your asthetic, budget and performance needs.

    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/jeremy-s/556-muzzle-device-shootout/amp/

    An adjustable gas block is a good investment, I prefer superlative arms, but there are others that review well. Yes you are correct, you only want enough gas to run the bolt reliably, anything more is just adding more carbon and beating up the action.

    Good for you getting a heavier buffer and spring.

    PM clandestine, he is (one of) the resident AR gurus.
     

    PorP

    Active Member
    Mar 11, 2016
    197
    Well, I hate the feel of hard plastic on my shoulder because I am a diva. YMMV

    I'm with ya. When it comes to buttocks, I'm a die hard magpul fan, when it comes to pistol grips, nothing but hogue will do.
     
    Mar 6, 2019
    67
    You are not getting twice the recoil of an m16, and the m16 does not kick "little more than a bolt action 22". I have a bolt action 22. And other guns to compare it to. An AR of the same weight (7.4lbs) will have the exact same recoil as an M16 on semi, its physics. About 3lbs. "Felt" recoil is your experience and has a lot to do with technique and ergonomics. The Del Ton and M16 are both about 7.4 lbs. If your M16 was 8.5 lbs that would absorb a little recoil (about 14%).

    Your memory is off, and you should consider the possibility you also dont remember how to shoulder the rifle (shotgun/rifle technique accounts for 70% of "felt" recoil). I'm am just kidding, but seriously: technique, ergonomics..

    Before you tinker with the gas or buffer, I'd look into a stock or muzzle brake. Its possible that your m16 had more ergonomic stock for you, maybe with a better rubber butt pad that enabled you to shoulder it better (or just get the same stock you had). Get an upgraded one. It's also possible your m16 had a compensator or muzzle brake. A brake will slow down the recoil and stop muzzle rise.

    I dont know what optic / sights you are using, but craning your neck for an improperly fit optic can do it too. But an optic also adds weight and the rifle absorbs more recoil.


    My memory not being quite right is a possibility. My wife tells me I’ve been wrong before but I don’t remember that. My AR is 6.55 lbs per DelTon’s site pre additions. The M-16 I’m comparing it to was a beater range rifle. Looking back there were a bunch of failures with the group of rifles we shot with. Under gassed 20” rifle vs over gassed 16” rifle could explain a bunch. I am shooting from a bench with a bipod so I’m not snugging the rifle into my shoulder as much. My technique probably could stand to improve. My new stock arrived today and I added some weight to my buffer. The new stock feels way nicer. Guess I’m gonna have to shoot it a bunch this weekend for testing purposes.
     
    Mar 6, 2019
    67
    Guess you beat me to it. The delton kit has a real cheap spring. I would take this guys advice, and even if it's not the names listed, most spring/ buffer kites will be better than what delton provides.

    I would also take danb's advice and get a decent muzzle break and buttstock. I don't think I would do padded at 5.56 but that's a personal opinion and me not wanting my 5.56 to feel like a 22lr.i put one on my 7.62x39 and regret it.


    I’ll check into the springs. I already have my new stock on. Went with an MOE stock. I like the fit and feel. I’ll have to check out some springs if DelTon’s springs are bottom of the barrel. Even if for no other reason than quality improvements.

    PM clandestine, he is (one of) the resident AR gurus.

    I didn’t take his class and I’m sure he’s swamped with PMs from paying students. He chimed in earlier and I think I have a path of troubleshooting forward. An adjustable gas block is still up in the air. I’ll treat the symptoms for now and see if there’s really a problem or if I just need to man up.
     

    PorP

    Active Member
    Mar 11, 2016
    197
    I’ll check into the springs. I already have my new stock on. Went with an MOE stock. I like the fit and feel. I’ll have to check out some springs if DelTon’s springs are bottom of the barrel. Even if for no other reason than quality improvements.



    I didn’t take his class and I’m sure he’s swamped with PMs from paying students. He chimed in earlier and I think I have a path of troubleshooting forward. An adjustable gas block is still up in the air. I’ll treat the symptoms for now and see if there’s really a problem or if I just need to man up.

    I can post or send pics of my delton spring after about 4k rounds if you want. Anything to help.
     

    PorP

    Active Member
    Mar 11, 2016
    197
    I'm trying to attach it, hopefully it worked. It had a brown coating which some of was in the buffer tube. It also lost some length.

    It's hard to tell from the photo but the spring width is smaller.

    It's noteworthy that the new spring and buffer were the lightest I could find as they are going in a 7.5" and I'm concerned about about energy loss from the short barrel. I would be putting a heavier spring in a 16/18/20"
     

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    calicojack

    American Sporting Rifle
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2018
    5,348
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    Carbine length gas systems (gas port at 7 inches) were really designed for 12.5 to 14.5" barrels, and when used with a 16" barrel leads to excessive dwell time and overgassing. ... Of course, one also has to factor in the size of the gas port itself ...

    Are you advising to avoid a carbine length gas system on a 16" barrel? Colt uses a carbine length gas system on most of their 16" barrel AR's (Colt Unit Carbine is the first to use a mid I think). So does Windham Weaponry and BCM.
     

    omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    I need to hunt down some cheap buffers for testing purposes. It would be nice to have a variety of weights to try with different ammo before committing to a quality buffer.
     

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