Hot 9mm Handloads for Carbine use?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • 4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    I can't speak for others but I always opt for heavier, slower, bullets when shooting at targets that must react to score. For falling steel matches, I have had the best luck with 147gr 9mm (if using 9x19mm) loaded to around 950-975. When bowling pin was a thing, I shot a .45ACP (set up to run hot 200-230gr loads) in the morning and a .44 Mag loaded with 300gr or 320gr in the afternoon.

    If you are looking at moving a solid target (and not incapacitating a soft one) then momentum, not energy, is where you want to look.

    Sadly, optimizing for knocking over steel plates will compromise your flat trajectory. A 115gr +P will be your best bet for "standard" ammo in that department but, if you are willing to go a bit more exotic, 88 and 90 gr .355 projectiles can be had. Never used them in an AR 9mm but we did play with them in MP5s a bit.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    If you were looking to maximize energy on target for hunting ( talking jurisdictions other than MD ) , then a controlled expansion 124gr .

    If you wanted to improve trajectory in a (semiauto) PCC , you've already made the most important step . You've chosen a 9mm instead of .45acp or .40s&w . 9mm with " random, average" 115 or 124 will increase +/- 300fps . .40 or .45 from 16in bbl will gain very little over a 5in bbl .

    I'm on a schedule now and can't look up the tenths of inches right now , but I have crunched the numbers many times over the years .

    Short answer - 9mm carbine is essentially a 100yd gun , without getting into rainbow trajectories . Not zero'ed @ 100yd , but after 100-ish starts requiring enough hold over to have to seriously think about . At little extra velocity will deliver more energy , but only a few yds difference in trajectory .

    Now if you wanted to get Serious with a medium bore Pistol cal rifle , the answer is .357mag . There you are looking at 158gr @ 1700-ish with random generic factory loads, and 1900 plus with handloads .
     

    dbledoc

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 8, 2013
    1,526
    Howard County
    If you were looking to maximize energy on target for hunting ( talking jurisdictions other than MD ) , then a controlled expansion 124gr .

    If you wanted to improve trajectory in a (semiauto) PCC , you've already made the most important step . You've chosen a 9mm instead of .45acp or .40s&w . 9mm with " random, average" 115 or 124 will increase +/- 300fps . .40 or .45 from 16in bbl will gain very little over a 5in bbl .

    I'm on a schedule now and can't look up the tenths of inches right now , but I have crunched the numbers many times over the years .

    Short answer - 9mm carbine is essentially a 100yd gun , without getting into rainbow trajectories . Not zero'ed @ 100yd , but after 100-ish starts requiring enough hold over to have to seriously think about . At little extra velocity will deliver more energy , but only a few yds difference in trajectory .

    Now if you wanted to get Serious with a medium bore Pistol cal rifle , the answer is .357mag . There you are looking at 158gr @ 1700-ish with random generic factory loads, and 1900 plus with handloads .

    Curious about what 10 mm PCC would do...
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    Never had or shot a 10mm AR pattern but I have used a 10mm MP5 variant a couple times. Aside from the ba$tard magazines, it hits with authority and I liked it. The group that owned them did have two different locking spades, depending on which ammo they were using. Evidently it made a significant difference. My only experience having to swap spades in 9mm MP5s was in K guns and SDs. My A2 always ran, can or no can, 115 to 147, with the same gear in it.

    I admit to curiosity in how a 10mm AR would run. I suspect that a CMMG rotary delay platform would be the better choice but this is purely my speculation.
     

    dbledoc

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 8, 2013
    1,526
    Howard County
    I admit to curiosity in how a 10mm AR would run. I suspect that a CMMG rotary delay platform would be the better choice but this is purely my speculation.

    Just checked the CMMG website. It looks like they have 10mm AR pistols and SBRs now. Nothing in a rifle length yet (my next purchase)!
     

    ironhead7544

    Active Member
    Oct 27, 2018
    188
    If you want longer range, look into the 147 gr Hornady XTP. It has a boat tail and a good BC. Feeds fine in my AR9 carbines.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    147's don't have as much porportional velocity increase from 16in bbls . My theorizing is the powder space in the loaded round is reduced enough that the available powder is full burned long before 16 inches .
     

    asdaven

    Active Member
    Oct 30, 2013
    272
    Maryland
    If you were looking to maximize energy on target for hunting ( talking jurisdictions other than MD ) , then a controlled expansion 124gr .

    If you wanted to improve trajectory in a (semiauto) PCC , you've already made the most important step . You've chosen a 9mm instead of .45acp or .40s&w . 9mm with " random, average" 115 or 124 will increase +/- 300fps . .40 or .45 from 16in bbl will gain very little over a 5in bbl .

    I'm on a schedule now and can't look up the tenths of inches right now , but I have crunched the numbers many times over the years .

    Short answer - 9mm carbine is essentially a 100yd gun , without getting into rainbow trajectories . Not zero'ed @ 100yd , but after 100-ish starts requiring enough hold over to have to seriously think about . At little extra velocity will deliver more energy , but only a few yds difference in trajectory .

    Now if you wanted to get Serious with a medium bore Pistol cal rifle , the answer is .357mag . There you are looking at 158gr @ 1700-ish with random generic factory loads, and 1900 plus with handloads .

    Cant beat the price on 9mm either over the other calibers. I agree, I think the 9mm is the better carbine or sub machine gun round and .45 is a better pistol/self defense round. Im a .45 fan but price-wise, I could grab my 5.56 and shoot for close to the same price. Of course ammo prices has changed with the Coronavirus. But im comparing ammo prices BEFORE all this started happening .

    I only plan on shooting it 100 yards or less.

    10mm might be the exception to the heavier/big bore options due to its power. Then theres .357 SIG which is probably the best option ballistically. But very expensive ammo and not a super popular/common caliber. 10mm is more popular but still expensive.

    10mm would probably require a delayed blowback or D.I. to run as its too powerful for a Blowback action. Maybe .357 SIG too dunno. Didint want to spend tons of money on a delayed blowback gun.

    .40 S&W- Im not really a fan of. Relatively new round that had intial popularity but now people are going back to 9mm and maybe some to .45. Been reports of case head failures and if I had a .40, id rather have a 10mm.

    Regular Blowback seems okay for 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. But I understand 9mm tends to run the best in this type of gun. Even the MP5, with the delayed roller blowback, they had to go back to the 9mm. They tried .40 and 10mm models which are cool, but apperently had lots of problems.

    So I ended up choosing 9mm. Plus its the most common caliber in Pistol Caliber ARs as far as parts and the glock mags are the highest capacities in the 9mm. In .45, the largest FACTORY Glock mag you can get is only 13 rounds.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    agreed that 9mm is the most practical subgun round. It is what I prefer, honestly, due to ammo cost, worldwide availability, and loadout capability. I know a couple guys that have used .45 subguns and I just can't get into them. I don't care for tommy guns (I know, take my American card.....) or grease guns much. The KRISS does nothing for me, the sight offset is retardedly large and the rate of fire is way too high. The only ones I can even sort of like are the SW45s but they are FINICKY and I would never want to depend on one that I hadn't fitted the magazines for myself. The caliber argument, for subguns, never made a lot of sense to me. If you stitch someone with four rounds of 9mm, spread appropriately across the torso, you have put the same amount of lead into them as two .45 slugs (assuming the standard 115gr and 230gr loadings) but you have made twice as many holes to let blood out and air in. The idea of a "one shot stop" is a good thing to hope for but most people that opt for subguns probably don't bet on it.

    I can say that most of the problems with the 10mm MP5s were related to improper care/feeding/operation. It is a very long story but 10mm comes in a surprising wide variety of loadings. If you put .40S&W power level "10mm" in the guns, they won't run. Period. The FBI ran into this problem because, so the story goes, the original MP5 10mm guns were designed to handle the real deal Norma loading, which was hot as heck. The FBI put sissy loads in them and had trouble. This is hearsay, as I never shot with the FBI guys that used 10mm guns. The group I shot 10mm MP5s with loved them. They just had to test the ammo they wanted to use and determine what degree of spade they needed for it. Swapping one out is not terribly difficult if you know what you are doing. There are even some tables that cover the various loadings in certain variants. This happens in 9mm MP5K/SP89 variants as well and I have even heard of it (though never seen it personally) in SD variants when going from 115 or 124gr NATO spec down to the lighter US loadings.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    probably overthinking hot 9 for targets, zeroing an AR based PCC at 25yds (2.5" sight height) out to 100yards subsonic 147gr will hit 3-4" low, hot 115gr will be around 1" low. Personally I compete with my PCCs, and when zeroed at 25yds, I never have to hold over/under unless i'm shooting a small target close, out to 100 they are basically dead on. if you go out to 200, then hold 12-18" high, will still probably be around 1K FPS, 9mm has decent ballistics for a pistol bullet. Really hot loads can be done, but there isn't much point, probably only change the POI an inch or so, and can introduce reliability issues. a higher BC or "flatter" shooting caliber can be nice in rifle cal's out to several hundred yards, but when you are shooting within 100 yards, it really doesn't matter much. For knocking down steel, the placement of the bullet relative to the hinge or base probably makes more of a difference if the target falls than 100FPS or so. Even then, most are set for minimum PF, my really light 124s and 147s have no problem knocking over targets out to the max 100 yard range.
     
    Last edited:

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    The sarge can come get my man card with his creaky, heavy as heck, tommy gun. If it has a blish lock I will even give him the first trigger pull. I will even do the twenty pushups, but he better put his '27 or '28 in a bag or on a table before he does his. Otherwise the sweat off his brow or the dust from the ground will lock that baby up. I have had occasion to work on tommy guns and, with the exception of the M1 and M1A1, I can't say any of them were reliable. Amazing for their time (first real subgun) but not very competitive by the time the end of world war two rolled around. After doing weld work on a couple, I concluded that the obscene weight they carry is just bad design. There are areas of the weapon that are very fragile in spite of the boat anchor weight. The Krauts' only real screwup with the MP40 (in my very biased opinion) was in making it available only with the somewhat floppy folding stock. Even with that crappy stock, a guy I worked for managed to break a couple of clays (out of a TON that he shot at) with one. A lot of pistol cal lead got slung that day (and at similar challenges since). Not many clays were hit. Those with tommy guns never hit a clay.

    The above should be taken in some degree of jest by those who truly love their gangster guns. I don't really hate them. I just haven't had anyone convince me that there aren't superior designs out there for just about any purpose!!!! I am all ears if the illustrious mexican bob can bring me the light I am too blind to see, though :-)
     

    ironhead7544

    Active Member
    Oct 27, 2018
    188
    147's don't have as much porportional velocity increase from 16in bbls . My theorizing is the powder space in the loaded round is reduced enough that the available powder is full burned long before 16 inches .

    With the 147 gr XTP an VV3n38, I get 1225 fps from a 16 inch barrel. Zeroing at 2.5 inches high at 50 yards puts it dead on at 100 yards and still has 1050 fps. Still going 1000 fps at 150 yards and will be 10 inches low from that zero. Velocity at 200 yards is 950 fps, the same as most factory 147 gr loads at the muzzle with a 4 inch pistol. B.C. is .210 for the 147 gr XTP.

    I am a big fan of the 9mm carbine. Most 115 gr JHP standard factory loads hit 1300 fps from a 16 inch barrel. CorBon 115 gr hits 1515 fps. I have standard 124 gr handloads that hit 1480 fps. The Winchester Nato load goes 1330 fps. Most factory 147 gr loads go 1050 fps from a 16 inch barrel.
     

    GunBum

    Active Member
    Feb 21, 2018
    751
    SW Missouri
    Almost everyone I know who loves the Thompson has never even held one, let alone fired one. :lol2::lol2:

    And the MP18 was the “first” submachine gun.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    32,179
    Sun City West, AZ
    I've fired Thompsons...awesome experience if for the history alone. They are heavy though...no question. A product of a bygone era of old world craftsmanship. It's somewhat like a M1 Garand...an awesome rifle in design and manufacture...obsolete in modern terms but still awesome.
     

    asdaven

    Active Member
    Oct 30, 2013
    272
    Maryland
    It would certainly be cool to have a Thompson. But, really in my opinion the Grease Gun was a better SMG. They were more accurate than the Thompson due to a slower rate of fire. Cruder, more cheaply made but more practical. I think they drew their design on the German MP40, which I believe was the best SMG of WWII. Had the perfect rate of fire and were very controllable and accurate.

    Then, if you wanted an even more rate of fire than a Thompson, the Russian PPSH. 7.62x25 was a neat round. Didint gain the popularity of 9mm or .45. But damn what a round. Although is small caliber for handgun ammunition, especially when 9mm is kindve like the 5.56 of handgun rounds. 7.62x25 was like the FN 5.7 of the day with its armor piercing capabilties.

    Of course, I truly believe the MP5 was the best SMG of all time. I dont understand the purpose of the H&K UMP. It does away with the roller delayed blowback to normal blowback with a massive heavy bolt. Its a step back. I was say between the MP5 and the AR/M16/M4 platform are the two most widely used and long standing shoulder-fired platforms of modern times at least in NATO countries.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,931
    Messages
    7,259,512
    Members
    33,350
    Latest member
    Rotorboater

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom