Russian SKS No Date TULA D Series Letter Gun What Is It Worth

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  • Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,213
    In a House
    LOL. No. Just trying to add to the conversation.
     

    Hecktor Peabody

    Boris Badinov
    Aug 22, 2018
    84
    Southeastern PA
    Pistons, bolts, recoil springs: top of the list for parts most often replaced in the sks.

    Also, the golden bayo is not a true indicator of original issue rifles. The bayonets could have very easily been dipped -- without being removed-- months or even years after initial manufacture-- leaving the staking marks in undisturbed. There is absolutely no way to say if the golden coating is original or not. There is actually a substantial weight of contemporaneous circumstantial evidence that suggest that the golden bayos are likely not original traits.

    However, I will say that the bolt, piston photos are very compelling. Do you have photos of all the serial numbers for that rifle (stamps and EP's)? If so are the stamped serials all the same fonts and can you post photos?

    Matching serials are one thing. But matching serials in mis-matched fonts tell an entirely different story.
     
    Last edited:

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,213
    In a House
    LOL. Having collected Third Reich firearms since the 80's, I've been on this dusty "matching font" road before. I've known both Mike Steves and Bruce Karem for many years now and they find this stuff amusing too. So, I'll indulge you just to see what further rationalizations you can conjure.

    The rifle the above pictures depict is a 1951 Tula:
    P1130113_zpsb3f64ef2.jpg


    P1130109_zps580b109f.jpg



    I'll just post everything I took including the above pictures.

    Top cover Tula star and date:
    P1130089_zps8d5c884b.jpg



    Serial number on receiver:
    P1130095_zpsa49e4e82.jpg

    Note ghosting around serial numbers, a clear indication of an original finish.


    Serial number on top cover again showing the ghosting indicative of an original finish:
    P1130090_zpsc96f2f10.jpg



    Gas piston:
    P1130077_zps523c10c7.jpg


    P1130081_zps38c6cdfb.jpg

    No carbon at all. Refer to above post for comparisons to the piston from an almost pristine and barely shot 1954 Ishevsk.


    Electropenciled numbers on piston and gas tube:
    P1130082_zps7877aad0.jpg



    Front of gas tube showing zero wear to the bluing and zero carbon deposits:
    P1130085_zps258b4287.jpg



    Main proofs on stock:
    P1130087_zps2361b5de.jpg


    P1130094_zps9aa58050.jpg

    I have yet to se a rework with a matching serial number on the stock that had these proofs intact as part of the rework process was sanding the stock.


    Serial number, manufacturer and date on stock:
    P1130088_zpsdf9abef4.jpg

    Again, on a rework, these marks are always either removed completely or lined out before the serial number is reapplied.


    Serial number on bottom of rear sight leaf:
    P1130097_zps44160ed7.jpg



    Muzzle in the white:
    P1130100_zpsb5f60133.jpg

    Almost ALWAYS black on a rework as the muzzle was usually ground before the rifle was dip blued. On a 1951, the barrel usually wasn't chromed to begin with which all but guaranteed the muzzle would be dark after the reblue.


    Serial on magazine:
    P1130102_zpsbac87f9d.jpg

    That pesky ghosting showing up again.


    ANd the trigger guard:
    P1130104_zps993bda11.jpg

    I'm not even going to point it out...….On second thought, yes I am. More ghosting.


    Electropenciled serial on extractor:
    P1130116_zpsb38b8c78.jpg



    Blot face showing no signs of a primer mark:
    P1130119_zpsabb52e74.jpg



    Serial number on bolt carrier:
    P1130120_zps0735abce.jpg

    Note the total absence of grind marks which would indicate that this carrier was renumbered. It's been with this SKS for 68 years now.


    Serial on bolt, again showing no grind and restamp:
    P1130121_zps377ea43c.jpg



    Another general shot showing the rear of the bolt and bolt carrier:
    P1130127_zps1ce0696a.jpg

    I forget why I took that picture but it was in the group so there you go.


    Completely undisturbed stake marks on bayonet mounting screw shown under two different lighting conditions:
    P1170786_zpslf1cmhit.jpg


    P1170787_zpsa6paxsd8.jpg

    Also note that the bayonet locking collet is the proper straight cut variation.


    That beautiful and rare gold coating on the bayonet:
    P1130123_zps82f3f1eb.jpg


    P1130124_zps6668c583.jpg


    P1130126_zpsed315770.jpg



    Proper blued but plate showing almost zero wear. Another indication of an unissued rifle.
    P1170791_zpstgpiwlbb.jpg

    Some had the serial number ep'ed into them and some did not. I wish this one did because that ould make it even more airtight. But its not necessary as all of the other characteristics of this rifle are proof enough that Tula SKS serial number BЮ 4798 was neither issued nor fired.
     

    Hecktor Peabody

    Boris Badinov
    Aug 22, 2018
    84
    Southeastern PA
    I agree that your 1951 carbine is an all-original carbine.

    I still believe that "unfired" is unproveable to 100% certainty. Also, although I believe that your carbine is "all original", this does not necessarily indicate that it is "as issued" or "unaltered since manufacture"...

    Regarding the buttplate. There is no evidence that EP serialization was a standard for buttplates at manufacture. Contemporaneous evidence suggests otherwise.

    From 1956-58, the Type 56 was manufactured simultaneously with the sks45. Excepting the stock wood, the early type 56 is an exact copy of the post 1954 sks45 design. And excepting geography, early Type56 manufacture was also an exact copy of the Soviet manufacture managed and run by Soviet technical advisers until 1959-60. And the buttplates on the early chinese guns bear no indications of having ever been EP serialized. Which would indicate that buttplate serials on Soviet guns were applied post production, likely during maintenance or when stocks were refinished.

    IMO your rifle is all original, however, the buttplate on your 1951 was painted at one time:



    Over time the paint has worn off with the indication being that the rifle has been through, at the very least, some modest post production, scheduled maintenance.


    Regarding the golden bayonet. Contemporaneous chinese guns dont have them. And many, 'all original' soviet guns don't have them either. The golden coating was likely applied post production with the bayonet still on the rifle leaving the staking marks intact. The evidence suggests that the golden bayonets have nothing to do with original manufacture, and are in all likelihood, a result not of where a given carbine began but where it ended up.

    One last observation:
    It may just be an affect of the lighting, but I do not see the two-tone annealing stripe on the receiver cover or gas tube.

    In sum, your rifle is easily one of the most beautiful Soviet guns I have seen, and likely all original. But it is not an as issued gun for the points I outline above. As well, "unfired" is an unverifiable claim to 100% certainty-- especially on a 70 year old surplus rifle. I have some nice carbines in my collection, but none quite as nice as this one.

    Thanks for sharing
     
    Last edited:

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,213
    In a House
    This reminds me of the time a guy tried to tell me my ZFK55 was put together out of spare parts. It didn't matter what I said or what proof I offered, it was always going to be a parts bin gun to him. I recently sold that "parts bin" clunker for over $5000 because some collectors get it...…..and some don't. I guess there is just no pleasing some. Thanks for your opinion!
     

    jrhzn

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 17, 2017
    280
    This reminds me of the time a guy tried to tell me my ZFK55 was put together out of spare parts. It didn't matter what I said or what proof I offered, it was always going to be a parts bin gun to him. I recently sold that "parts bin" clunker for over $5000 because some collectors get it...…..and some don't. I guess there is just no pleasing some. Thanks for your opinion!

    It all comes down to what you believe the perceived value is based on what is important to you, and what it's perceived future value will be. In this case, I perceived that the Letter Series SKS (refurbished or not) is unique and would be more collectable than a standard SKS and have better future value. Based on the average going rate of as issued Tula SKS's, maybe I should just say "F" it and shoot the damn thing until it falls apart.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,213
    In a House
    If I were you, I wouldn't think twice about shooting your rifle. The SKS is one of the most robust semi-auto rifles ever made and the chances of you breaking something by shooting it are nil. It'll outlast everyone alive today on this planet!
     

    Hecktor Peabody

    Boris Badinov
    Aug 22, 2018
    84
    Southeastern PA
    This reminds me of the time a guy tried to tell me my ZFK55 was put together out of spare parts. It didn't matter what I said or what proof I offered, it was always going to be a parts bin gun to him. I recently sold that "parts bin" clunker for over $5000 because some collectors get it...…..and some don't. I guess there is just no pleasing some. Thanks for your opinion!

    Are you saying that you don't see the paint?

    Because the flecks of paint couldn't get any more obvious. Especially around the heel. I'm surprised you've not yet noticed this very blatant detail. ???

    Which begs the question: if the rifle was stored in a crate for half a century, then why would the paint have worn away?

    Answer: because is wasnt stored away for half a century. The paint on the buttplate was slowly worn away from issue use -- i.e. from being cradled in a palm and/or sitting upright in a rack in the unit armory to which is was issued.

    Believe what you like. I'm just listening to the story that the rifle tells.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,213
    In a House
    I do see the paint flecks. I also see the 98% bluing. The paint used on the butt plates of these rifles is not the same as the "barbecue paint" seen on many reworks. Like the gold finish, it was put there for preservation in storage and it's not very durable. You do understand that was imported over 20 years ago? For all I know, some dufuss simply wanted to remove the paint after import because he liked to see the bluing. In the end, I have no idea why it's gone but it certainly wasn't from use.
     

    Hecktor Peabody

    Boris Badinov
    Aug 22, 2018
    84
    Southeastern PA
    I do see the paint flecks. I also see the 98% bluing. The paint used on the butt plates of these rifles is not the same as the "barbecue paint" seen on many reworks. Like the gold finish, it was put there for preservation in storage and it's not very durable. You do understand that was imported over 20 years ago? For all I know, some dufuss simply wanted to remove the paint after import because he liked to see the bluing. In the end, I have no idea why it's gone but it certainly wasn't from use.

    The stockplate is the part of the rifle that comes gets the most contact with the armory rack, and in the palms of the hands. Paint doesn't wear to that extent just resting horizontally in a sealed crate. Stockplates wear like that from resting horizontally and from sweat from cradling palms. And from being repeatedly lifted and returned to the rack.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,213
    In a House
    There is an annealing stripe. I'm aware of how argumentative you can be on other forums and I assume this one is going to be no different. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one buddy. I'm moving on because this will never end with you.
     

    Hecktor Peabody

    Boris Badinov
    Aug 22, 2018
    84
    Southeastern PA
    There is an annealing stripe. I'm aware of how argumentative you can be on other forums and I assume this one is going to be no different. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one buddy. I'm moving on.

    see my signature line.


    I'm not really into mollycoddling anyone's emotional attachment to a particular surplus item. My intent is to point out the story that the surplus item tells, and not the one that makes someone feel good.


    Like I said, it's an absolutely gorgeous rifle. But you and it are telling two entirely different stories.
     

    jrhzn

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 17, 2017
    280
    If I were you, I wouldn't think twice about shooting your rifle. The SKS is one of the most robust semi-auto rifles ever made and the chances of you breaking something by shooting it are nil. It'll outlast everyone alive today on this planet!

    Ha! Does that make the SKS the cockroach of battle rifles!
     

    jrhzn

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 17, 2017
    280
    Any recommendations on where / who to send my SKS to to have the BBQ paint removed and blued?
     

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