Recommendations on longer range rifle

Rc29b1 · Aug 31, 2017

So im pretty new here, also new to maryland. I bought my first Ar15 several months ago and i love it. Now im looking for something with more accuracy at a longer distance, nothing crazy maybe 400 yrds plus. Ive been told by people at the gun shop and at ranges several different things. The guns ive been told to look at the most are the ruger mini 14 or mini 30 and the sw mp 10.
Anyone have any suggestions??

mopar92 · Aug 31, 2017

Rc29b1 said:
So im pretty new here, also new to maryland. I bought my first Ar15 several months ago and i love it. Now im looking for something with more accuracy at a longer distance, nothing crazy maybe 400 yrds plus. Ive been told by people at the gun shop and at ranges several different things. The guns ive been told to look at the most are the ruger mini 14 or mini 30 and the sw mp 10.
Anyone have any suggestions??

Stick with your AR and get a free floated handguard and good ammo.

AR's are the go to competition guns for 600 yard matches.

Whoever told you to look at the Mini 14 and 30 for lomg range accuracy where either idiots or talking out of there ass.

Rc29b1 · Aug 31, 2017

Really? Sorry im new to this. I heard the most about the smith and wesson mp 10 shooting. 308. I was told that my ar15 5.56 bullet actually tumbles instead of shooting straight compared to the later. And also i dont know much about the free floating. Can u explain?

Uncle Duke · Aug 31, 2017

Op, "long range" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. One thing is sure though. The Mini's are a lot of things, but Mini and long range accuracy don't belong in the same sentence. If you're dealing with a shop telling you otherwise, do yourself a favor and guard your money, and find yourself another shop.

mopar92 · Sep 1, 2017

Rc29b1 said:
Really? Sorry im new to this. I heard the most about the smith and wesson mp 10 shooting. 308. I was told that my ar15 5.56 bullet actually tumbles instead of shooting straight compared to the later. And also i dont know much about the free floating. Can u explain?

Okay so super quick and dirty.

The M&P 10 is a 308 gas operated gun. Let's break that down beginner style.

People fawn over the 308/30-06 as a long range gun because for decades it was the military's sniper round(s). The reason it was the military's sniper round is because they had millions of bullets made in both rounds and it was cheaper to use them up than buy new ones or research new cartridges.

You probably don't have that problem.

A gas gun (piston/DI doesn't matter) is going to have 3 distinct actions when firing. The heavier recoil of the larger cartridge, the (heavier) bolt unlocking and slamming to the rear, and the bolt slamming into the locked position.

So you're basically going to have to learn the fundamentals of marksmanship while the lightweight gun does its best impression of a pissed off rodeo bull.

It's not that bad but I don't know your fitness/size/experience.

The AR-15 and the Mini 14 fire the same bullet. Neither should tumble through the air. They'll tumble through a person/hard surface/small dinosaur but not through the air. If they do gun is broken, fix gun.

Whoever told you AR bullets tumble through the air is either fvcking with you or wears Velcro shoes cause they're parents don't trust them with laces.

Free floating just means nothing nonessential is touching the barrel before/during/after firing. So you're hand pressure, hand position, sandbag, Tibetan Sherpa isn't causing your barrel to move before you shoot. Using hand pressure alone with someone else shooting I got the point of impact on an M16A2 style rifle to move 4" down at 100 yards.

We debated having me do pull ups on the barrel to see if we could curve the bullet.

Also if you do decide to get a freefloat handguard, go MLOK cause Keymod sucks.

Rc29b1 · Sep 1, 2017

Thanks for the great info, so what would u guys suggest for long range shooting then?

mopar92 · Sep 1, 2017

Rc29b1 said:
Thanks for the great info, so what would u guys suggest for long range shooting then?

Without knowing the particulars of your rifle......
Get a good (Harris or better like Atlas or GG&G) bipod a Nikon AR223 3-9x scope and a Larue or similar QD mount and some IMI or PPU 69 grain BTHP or OTM ammo and learn the basics of long range rifle work. Free float the barrel and if you want to make it easy get a Geiselle trigger while you're at it.

Minuteman · Sep 1, 2017

Good advice, mopar has this covered.

:thumbsup:

Biggfoot44 · Sep 1, 2017

To take slightly parallel track from Mopar' s advice :

You already have, an AR-15 , and are talking about expending the cost of an AR-10 .

Divide the price of AR-10 in half. Now contact Engage Armament and Precision Armament ( MDS Industry Partners ) , and inquire about free floated uppers, with most accurate bbl they currently have on hand comensurate with that budget . Buy that.

Decent scope, and decent trigger probably would have been needed with a .308 rifle also , up to you if you want to include the cost of Geiselle trigger now, or start out with oem , and get G trigger on Black Friday sale.

Then , use the new upper on your lower , until you report back with your consistent .75moa groups, and we'll be glad to discuss 6.5 Grendel vs 6.5 Creedmore with you.

j_h_smith · Sep 1, 2017

Rc29b1 said:
Thanks for the great info, so what would u guys suggest for long range shooting then?

50bmg!

danb · Sep 1, 2017

omg, who said to look at the mini 14 for accuracy?! Please out this moron. Lets just say my AK-style rifle makes the mini 14 look like a tack driver.

You have to define accuracy, and what you are currently getting from your rifle.

I'll be honest, the #1 and #2 cause of inaccuracy I see at the range is poorly fit / loose scope mounts or parts and the like, and poor technique. I have seen some really poor builds fly all over the paper at 50yds, a couple of turns of some screws here and there yields substantial improvement. If you cannot hit good 2-3" groups with your rifle at 100yds, button it down really tight.

But honestly, even cheap ARs are capable of good accuracy (1.5MOA or better). You should have no problem hitting a gong at 400yds. If you cannot, odds are extremely high you need to button down some mounts, or work on technique. Getting a rifle with more recoil and trying to shoot it will probably make your technique worse, not better.

Full disclosure, my technique is not great. I once thought one of my rifles was less than accurate. Guy at the range took it and shot one hole groups. Damn marines think they are the shit. It was really ... instructive. I've improved since then, no changes to the rifle.

Major03 · Sep 1, 2017

OP, first let me say welcome to the forum and to the shooting sports in general. There is a ton of knowledge to be learned here, and some really great folks that will help you out...but you'll need some thick skin too. I'll tell you right now, the guys at the local gun shop gave you shit advice.

To help you out the best, realistically what are your goals? For example...

1) I'm a hobbyist and I want to make tiny groups at the longest range possible that I have available to me at the local range...which is probably about 200 yds?
2) I'm a hobbyist and I want to learn precision shooting for competition...maybe get into either 3 gun, service rifle or F Class competition?
3) I'm a hobbyist and I've seen a lot of cool movies and TV shows where the hero can hit targets out to and including a mile and I want to be able to say I can do that too?

My initial read is that you probably fall into category 1...which is cool. Your AR is a very capable and plenty accurate rifle out to at least 500 yards. I guarantee you that your shooting ability is the limiting factor right now (training, time and practice is what changes those things).

Mopar and BigFoot are giving you some great advice. I'd look at upgrading your current rifle / ammo combination and work on your shooting fundamentals first, before running out and buying another rifle.

Can I ask you what specific AR you have? What is the twist rate on the barrel (should be stamped on your barrel, and what kind of ammunition are you shooting (manufacturer / bullet weight in grains)? Matching the correct bullet with the twist rate of your barrel can turn a frustrating "can't hit the broad side of a barn POS" into a shooter and vice versa.

In regards to shooting fundamentals, might I suggest joining one of the clubs at Mariottsville and learning how to shoot the AR. One of the clubs is called Maryland Rifle Club, and they focus on service rifle competition shooting (e.g. the AR-15). They host matches regularly, and also have a lot of new shooters that they give introductory classes to and provide outstanding coaching. They have some really phenomenal shooters in that club.

Once you master your AR, at some point the 5.56/.223 round will become a limiting factor in terms of range. Faster twist barrels and heavier bullets can take you out to about 7-800 yds, but if you're really looking at F class shooting distances you'll want a different caliber. Generally speaking, bolt action rifles are easier to master for precision long range shooting than gas guns (less moving pieces = easier (and generally cheaper) to make consistent shot to shot). There are several calibers that have been suggested that are excellent choices for many reasons.

Lastly, if you really want to get into long range precision shooting...be prepared to drop some pretty serious cash. You'll spend probably twice what you spend on a precision bolt action rifle on optics. Match ammo will chew up some money as well...and of course you'll then want to get into reloading so that you can customize your own ammo to match your rifle...and that's a whole other hobby / obsession and money suck.

And all of that is pointless unless you have sound shooting fundamentals

Good luck!

730waters · Sep 1, 2017

If you want a long range cartridge that is fun to shoot with great accuracy at long range, look into the 6.5 x 284. Top it with a Nightforce scope and with the right recipe, you can punch out to 1000 yards. You will need a 20 moa scope base.

davsco · Sep 1, 2017

730waters said:
If you want a long range cartridge that is fun to shoot with great accuracy at long range, look into the 6.5 x 284. Top it with a Nightforce scope and with the right recipe, you can punch out to 1000 yards. You will need a 20 moa scope base.

agree with all this, BIL has one. i call it the 'cheater's caliber.' the big issue is price and availability of match ammo. 6.5 creedmoor ballistics aren't too inferior, and match ammo is reasonably priced (around 308 prices) and much more prevalent - ended up being my LR choice.

OP, if you want an AR-10 variant vs a bolt gun, check out dpms LR308 (24" heavy bbl). after i added a geissele two stage trigger, mine (in 308) was def sub-moa out to 600yds, the furthest i measured. pretty reasonable entry price.

Michigander08 · Sep 1, 2017

Or you can join the Army National Guard and they will let you qualify long range shooting one in a blue moon. Make sure you pick infantry MOS. Don't do combat support or you will end up driving a truck or cooking burgers in the mess hall.

Rc29b1 · Sep 1, 2017

Major03 said:
OP, first let me say welcome to the forum and to the shooting sports in general. There is a ton of knowledge to be learned here, and some really great folks that will help you out...but you'll need some thick skin too. I'll tell you right now, the guys at the local gun shop gave you shit advice.

To help you out the best, realistically what are your goals? For example...

1) I'm a hobbyist and I want to make tiny groups at the longest range possible that I have available to me at the local range...which is probably about 200 yds?
2) I'm a hobbyist and I want to learn precision shooting for competition...maybe get into either 3 gun, service rifle or F Class competition?
3) I'm a hobbyist and I've seen a lot of cool movies and TV shows where the hero can hit targets out to and including a mile and I want to be able to say I can do that too?

My initial read is that you probably fall into category 1...which is cool. Your AR is a very capable and plenty accurate rifle out to at least 500 yards. I guarantee you that your shooting ability is the limiting factor right now (training, time and practice is what changes those things).

Mopar and BigFoot are giving you some great advice. I'd look at upgrading your current rifle / ammo combination and work on your shooting fundamentals first, before running out and buying another rifle.

Can I ask you what specific AR you have? What is the twist rate on the barrel (should be stamped on your barrel, and what kind of ammunition are you shooting (manufacturer / bullet weight in grains)? Matching the correct bullet with the twist rate of your barrel can turn a frustrating "can't hit the broad side of a barn POS" into a shooter and vice versa.

In regards to shooting fundamentals, might I suggest joining one of the clubs at Mariottsville and learning how to shoot the AR. One of the clubs is called Maryland Rifle Club, and they focus on service rifle competition shooting (e.g. the AR-15). They host matches regularly, and also have a lot of new shooters that they give introductory classes to and provide outstanding coaching. They have some really phenomenal shooters in that club.

Once you master your AR, at some point the 5.56/.223 round will become a limiting factor in terms of range. Faster twist barrels and heavier bullets can take you out to about 7-800 yds, but if you're really looking at F class shooting distances you'll want a different caliber. Generally speaking, bolt action rifles are easier to master for precision long range shooting than gas guns (less moving pieces = easier (and generally cheaper) to make consistent shot to shot). There are several calibers that have been suggested that are excellent choices for many reasons.

Lastly, if you really want to get into long range precision shooting...be prepared to drop some pretty serious cash. You'll spend probably twice what you spend on a precision bolt action rifle on optics. Match ammo will chew up some money as well...and of course you'll then want to get into reloading so that you can customize your own ammo to match your rifle...and that's a whole other hobby / obsession and money suck.

And all of that is pointless unless you have sound shooting fundamentals

Good luck!

Thanks everyone for the advice so far. As far as your first question im between 1 and 2. My local range actually goes out to 500 yds. And i want to learn to try out percision long range shooting and maybe just stay with it as a hobby or if im really into it try out 3 gun or something similar.

As for my ar. It was a cheaper one. It's an armalite eagle arms 15. It has a 1:8 twist. .223 wylde. Im just running iron sights on it now. And ive been using federal american eagle 5.56 ammo

Biggfoot44 · Sep 1, 2017

Then try decent scope, trigger upgrade, and some match grade 69gr ammo, and see what it'll do .

Major03 · Sep 2, 2017

Agreed. That rifle is fully capable of 500 yds.

As others have suggested I'd consider the following:
- upgrade your trigger. Larue's MBT trigger is in sale for $99 right now, which is a steal. Every bit as good as a Geissel imo for a lot less money.
- upgrade to a free float hand guard. It's a do it yourself job. Agree that MLOK is preferable to keylock.
- if precision long range out to say 800 yds is your thing, consider a nice fixed 10x scope. My recommendation would be the SWFA fixed 10x HD. The HD glass is amazingly clear and it's a well built scope. Beware variable power scopes that are comparably priced or lower. Fine for plinking, if your doing precision shooting you'll just end up upgrading it and waste your money in the long run. The glass will suck and the turrets won't be repeatable and will eventually break. Glass is def you get what you pay for IMHO.
- if 3 gun is your thing, I'd consider a good red dot scope. Aimpoint PRO is well built and has long battery life. Plenty cheaper, plenty more expensive. It's a good, reliable and well built red dot.
- I still recommend learning to shoot with iron sights (you'll want back up sights anyway for three gun). Learn the basic fundamentals, the shooting positions and shooting supported with a sling. You won't always use it (unless you do service rifle), but it teaches fundamentals that transfer. I actually shoot better with a sling in the prone than I do with a bipod. Learn how to use a bipod. There's more to it than you'd think. Snipers Hide forum has some great reference materials and threads on that topic.
- Army Marksmanship Unit has some great videos online that are good teaching tools. Get some coaching if you can too.
- learn how to read the wind and adjust your turrets for windage and changing elevation. It's cheaper to learn how to do that on a .22 trainer. If you're gonna get a second gun right away, I'd say get a .22 trainer and learn how to hit targets at 100 yds and beyond consistently. It'll translate and it's fun.
- lastly, with a 1/8 twist, depending on your barrel, you might be able to shoot heavier bullets than 69 grain too. The heavier the bullet, the less wind will effect it...the easier it is to hit your target on a windy day.

Major03 · Sep 2, 2017

Other thought... probably good to have realistic expectations too. My guess is your rifle will probably be about a 2 MOA rifle once you find the right ammo that it likes. Give or take...you might get lucky and have it be tighter, or a bit looser.

That translates roughly into about two inch groups per 100 yds. So as you stretch your way out to 500 that'd be about a ten inch group, give or take. Small enough to hit a gong.

That'll be a benchmark to clue you in that your abilities have matched the capabilities of the weapon. When you can consistently hold a grouping that the weapon / ammo combination is capable of.

At that point, then consider moving to a bolt action rifle. I happen to prefer Remingtons, but that's just me. I've never shot a Savage, but they have a great reputation for amazing out of the box accuracy. There are plenty of other manufacturers and custom receivers, but if you're looking for an "out of the box" rifle...those are the two I'd probably look into.

dist1646 · Sep 2, 2017

Nothing wrong with Armalite/Eagle Arms. If it has Armalite's 2 stage trigger, it is good enough. If not, a trigger upgrade is in order. You definitely will want a free float tube. Since you have a 1-8 twist barrel, your rifle may have came with one. Armalite's 1-8 twist barrel will stabilize up to 80gr bullets. I suggest you try some 77gr bullets for distance, 69's are fine out to 300yds. I remember some junior team best the big teams at Perry several years ago and they were using box stock Armalite NM rifles. I don't see anything about whether you have a flat top (A4) or an A2 style upper. A pic would help. Some good advise above.

Recommendations on longer range rifle

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