Submitted Wear and Carry Renewal

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  • HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    I got my first permit long ago before the training requirement and renewed several times without training. This most recent renewal I did submit a training certificate.[/Q

    Have you renewed since 2013 without training?
     

    HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    No, you did not complete a firearms training course approved by the Secretary. You completed a firearms training course, specified by Maryland State Law. And the law MANDATES a training requirement before each application and before EACH renewal.
    How did I get my first renewal if I did not complete an approved training course?
     

    FRANKCASTLE

    Member
    Apr 28, 2013
    35
    You guys that have renewed:

    I am unclear on one point.

    Do I need to send the financial data ( bank deposit verification ) like I did on initial application?

    Thanks!

    They told me at interview for initial approval if ANYTHING CHANGES ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS then notify us thats also broad and open to interpretation
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,060
    I completed an 8 hour training course, given by a certified trainer, that was required and approved and sufficed for me to receive my renewal permit. I submitted that certificate and received a renewed permit. On subsequent renewal I abided by what is clearly stated that if you have completed a certified training course you are exempt and I received another renewal.

    And it would appear that you slipped through the "training requirement before each renewal" crack. As others have said, congrats.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,060
    How did I get my first renewal if I did not complete an approved training course?

    Because you completed an enumerated training course, which is different from an approved training course. As for your 2md renewal, you slipped through a crack, congrats.
     

    HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    And it would appear that you slipped through the "training requirement before each renewal" crack. As others have said, congrats.
    Ok great, you're right. I can see there is no proving you wrong anyway so please explain the wording from the MSP website for requirements and exemptions from training for W&C permits as well as the wording in the information you posted from Maryland Annotated Code, Public Safety Article about exemptions from training.

    Also please explain how you know what training course I completed? Your words, "Because you completed an enumerated training course, which is different from an approved training course". My certificate clearly states "Pursuant to COMAR, Section 29.03.02.05 of the Annotated Code of Maryland" It also states above the signature line for myself and instructor "I have completed the minimum curriculum of instruction in the training and use of handguns as prescribed by the Superintendent of the Maryland State Police, Pursuant to COMAR, section 29.03.02.05"

    In your opinion I must have slipped through twice on renewal.....really?
     

    HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    I can read it and I clearly see where it says "before each renewal", but if we all MUST have 8 hours of training "before each renewal" then NO one is exempt. Not even current/retired LEO or current/retired Military or Qualified Handgun Instructors. So why does this, Exemptions from Training Course, section below even exist?

    (b) Exemptions from training course. -- An applicant for a permit is not required to complete a certified firearms training course under subsection (a) of this section if the applicant:

    (1) is a law enforcement officer or a person who is retired in good standing from service with a law enforcement agency of the United States, the State, or any local law enforcement agency in the State;

    (2) is a member, retired member, or honorably discharged member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard;

    (3) is a qualified handgun instructor; or

    (4) has completed a firearms training course approved by the Secretary.
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    I can read it and I clearly see where it says "before each renewal", but if we all MUST have 8 hours of training "before each renewal" then NO one is exempt. Not even current/retired LEO or current/retired Military or Qualified Handgun Instructors. So why does this, Exemptions from Training Course, section below even exist?

    (b) Exemptions from training course. -- An applicant for a permit is not required to complete a certified firearms training course under subsection (a) of this section if the applicant:

    (1) is a law enforcement officer or a person who is retired in good standing from service with a law enforcement agency of the United States, the State, or any local law enforcement agency in the State;

    (2) is a member, retired member, or honorably discharged member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard;

    (3) is a qualified handgun instructor; or

    (4) has completed a firearms training course approved by the Secretary.
    Yes. Twice now. However I am exempt under (b)(2). Which begs the question if my exemption under (b)(2) excuses me from the 8 hour renewal training requirement why doesn't (b)(4) do the same?
    Good stuff
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,060
    Ok great, you're right. I can see there is no proving you wrong anyway so please explain the wording from the MSP website for requirements and exemptions from training for W&C permits as well as the wording in the information you posted from Maryland Annotated Code, Public Safety Article about exemptions from training.

    Also please explain how you know what training course I completed? Your words, "Because you completed an enumerated training course, which is different from an approved training course". My certificate clearly states "Pursuant to COMAR, Section 29.03.02.05 of the Annotated Code of Maryland" It also states above the signature line for myself and instructor "I have completed the minimum curriculum of instruction in the training and use of handguns as prescribed by the Superintendent of the Maryland State Police, Pursuant to COMAR, section 29.03.02.05"

    In your opinion I must have slipped through twice on renewal.....really?

    COMAR is the administrative notes on how the MSP will enforce the laws in 5-306 of the Public Safety Article. COMAR is NOT the law.

    As for the MSP website, it is replete with incorrect information, and does not and will not hold up in a court of law.

    Yep, you did twice.

    The exemption as written into Maryland State law, is for the training as written in the law itself (the 16 hour initial training and the 8 hour renewal). In order to be exempt from taking that specific training, as written in the law, you would have to take an alternate training course that was approved by the Secretary. To my knowledge and the rest of the 2A community, the Secretary has not approved any training what so ever.

    So I ask you, what training has the Secretary approved (that is not written into Maryland law), that you have taken, that exempts you from the 8 hour requirement?
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,060
    Yes. Twice now. However I am exempt under (b)(2). Which begs the question if my exemption under (b)(2) excuses me from the 8 hour renewal training requirement why doesn't (b)(4) do the same?

    Because the Secretary has never approved any training. The only training they accept is what is enumerated in the law as written by the legislature. In order to be exempt from the training as written in the law, the Secretary has to have approved another form of training.

    What training has the Secretary approved, that is not written specifically in the law?
     

    HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    Because the Secretary has never approved any training. The only training they accept is what is enumerated in the law as written by the legislature. In order to be exempt from the training as written in the law, the Secretary has to have approved another form of training.

    What training has the Secretary approved, that is not written specifically in the law?
    That is ridiculously confusing and way over complicated. They should just get rid of (b)(4) then. It is cause for misunderstanding.

    I still have to question how do you figure I slipped through twice, as you stated in post #53, when I took the exact same 8 hour renewal training class as everyone else did to renew their permit ?
     

    HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    Now to clear the air. After arguing my point for several days, I have to admit that I was wrong. Kudos to dblas for persisting to convey the facts. On Tuesday I was contacted by a MSP Sgt. and he said they do random quality control checks on permit applications and found that I had not submitted the required training documentation and my permit would be revoked. I explained to him my point of view concerning the wording about exemptions on the MSP website and he agreed the wording is confusing but none the less we do need 8 hours training for every renewal. I would like to say that the Sgt. was very understanding and helpful and told me that when I complete the updated training and submit the documentation my permit would be reinstated. I completed the 8 hour training yesterday at Freestate and submitted.
     

    HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    I would also like to thank Bryan Fletcher at Freestate for making time to get me in on very short notice. I did my first 8 hour renewal training with Bryan 3 years ago at AGC and he is great. He is now Director of Training at Freestate.
     

    GTOGUNNER

    IANAL, PATRIOT PICKET!!
    Patriot Picket
    Dec 16, 2010
    5,492
    Carroll County!
    Now to clear the air. After arguing my point for several days, I have to admit that I was wrong. Kudos to dblas for persisting to convey the facts. On Tuesday I was contacted by a MSP Sgt. and he said they do random quality control checks on permit applications and found that I had not submitted the required training documentation and my permit would be revoked. I explained to him my point of view concerning the wording about exemptions on the MSP website and he agreed the wording is confusing but none the less we do need 8 hours training for every renewal. I would like to say that the Sgt. was very understanding and helpful and told me that when I complete the updated training and submit the documentation my permit would be reinstated. I completed the 8 hour training yesterday at Freestate and submitted.
    We all know that MSP reads MDSHOOTERS , mostly however for the humor!

    Sent from the 3rd Rock
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    Now to clear the air. After arguing my point for several days, I have to admit that I was wrong. Kudos to dblas for persisting to convey the facts. On Tuesday I was contacted by a MSP Sgt. and he said they do random quality control checks on permit applications and found that I had not submitted the required training documentation and my permit would be revoked. I explained to him my point of view concerning the wording about exemptions on the MSP website and he agreed the wording is confusing but none the less we do need 8 hours training for every renewal. I would like to say that the Sgt. was very understanding and helpful and told me that when I complete the updated training and submit the documentation my permit would be reinstated. I completed the 8 hour training yesterday at Freestate and submitted.
    I am sure you know that this wasn't random and it was directly a result of MSP monitoring our forum.
     

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