Recommendations on longer range rifle

As I read it, the trigger on this rifle out of the box is single stage - and even the Armalite 2-stage is 8lbs total as I read it. ugh, that would suck. I don't even think my revolver has an 8lbs pull. Geissle is having a labor day sale, their 2-stage is only $132. 4.5lbs total. The barrel on this is chrome lined too. People claim this reduces accuracy. A new barrel would be another $120

But if it were me, i'd start with a scope and maybe trigger. Once I had technique down and I was sure I could get 2 MOA, which is what this rifle can do, then I'd move to a new barrel, handguard, or maybe a whole new upper.

That's a great deal on the Geissle trigger. Hmmmmmmmmmm....

I do like the Larue though and they have a Labor Day sale going as well.

There are a lot of good deals this weekend.

There is precision shooting and then there is precision shooting. Meaning the definition of precision varies with what shooting discipline you are discussing.

Precision comes mostly from the "Nut" behind the trigger, that means you. Each shooting platform has its own inherent accuracy which is a result of many factors. For example there are design considerations i.e. a good bolt action will be more accurate than an equally good lever action or semi automatic, a longer barrel will be more accurate than a shorter barrel (with iron sights the longer sight radius of a longer barrel is more accurate); other considerations are the quality of construction. As the ranges get longer the ballistics of the cartridge becomes more important. Then atmospheric conditions start to play a part. The list goes on and on.

So lets start with you.
Get some good basic instruction then find a coach who will help you get better by observing how you shoot and making suggestions for improvements.

Many shooters are not in very good shape and physical condition as well as diet also have an effect, you can probably assess your condition and diet and make any necessary adjustments.

Since you are new to the sport I would also suggest some education so here are some links to help you get started.

Here is the CMP Coaching Resources page, start reading:
http://thecmp.org/training-tech/coaching-resources/

The USAMU Service Rifle Marksmanship Guide:
http://www.nfga.org/highpower/pdfs/basic_highpower_info/SR_Shooting_Guide_AMU031204.pdf

The US Army International Rifle Marksmanship Guide:
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/us army international rifle marksmanship guide.pdf

To get you started on the science of ballistics I suggest starting with the beginnings of modern ballistics, F.W. Mann's book "The Bullet’s Flight From Powder to Target" which although dated gives a basic understanding of the forces involved:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4522233;view=1up;seq=1

Reading these will give you a foundation to build on and will ultimately lead you to more questions and many other sources. Welcome to the world of shooting.

Don't forget the Appleseed program for learning the fundamentals.

Nice thing about the AR is the easy upgrade.

Trigger is first thing I would do, then the barrel free float. After that, you can replace the barrel with a match grade barrel.

Or, just buy a match upper. White Oak Arms if you want a top notch, out of the box match grade upper. There are others also.

For really long range, bolt action tends to be the way to go. There are a number of calibers that will work. But, unless you want to add reloading to your hobby, stick to one that has easy ability to purchase high quality ammo from multiple sources.

I run a Daniel defense Ar for sub 300... cmc flat face trigger and everything else (stock, grip, etc) to my personal preference.

I run a dpms sass ar10 for 200-500 fun... it's turning in to a franken now with all of the changes I've made to set it up for what I like. I agree with others on here... though I learned to shoot long range with it, the gas gun has its disadvantages when trying to learn fundamentals... but I still enjoy it.

I use my ruger precision for everything greater... my best group is .18 with this gun shooting Winchester match. I put the timney trigger in it and it's amazing. Love that thing. I think if you're really interested in going long range, go with this.... you'll want to go longer and longer every time. I shoot this in 6.5 creedmoor

Good luck!

danb said:

As I read it, the trigger on this rifle out of the box is single stage - and even the Armalite 2-stage is 8lbs total as I read it. ugh, that would suck. I don't even think my revolver has an 8lbs pull. Geissle is having a labor day sale, their 2-stage is only $132. 4.5lbs total. The barrel on this is chrome lined too. People claim this reduces accuracy. A new barrel would be another $120

But if it were me, i'd start with a scope and maybe trigger. Once I had technique down and I was sure I could get 2 MOA, which is what this rifle can do, then I'd move to a new barrel, handguard, or maybe a whole new upper.

Click to expand...

I too have a Geiselle 4.5 trigger on my DPMS AR15...best investment I ever made...very crisp trigger. I'm using a Burris Eliminator 3-12x scope and have no problems hitting my AR500 gong target at 469 yards...5 shots, 5 hits...

Low,many moons ago, we qualified in the Marine Corps with M16A1 rifles at 500 yards with M193 ammunition. Your lower with a target or varmint upper, a good trigger. and good ammunition will, like the gentlemen have previously stated, do the job quite well.

danb said:

I'll be honest, the #1 and #2 cause of inaccuracy I see at the range is poorly fit / loose scope mounts or parts and the like, and poor technique. I have seen some really poor builds fly all over the paper at 50yds, a couple of turns of some screws here and there yields substantial improvement. If you cannot hit good 2-3" groups with your rifle at 100yds, button it down really tight.

Click to expand...

This is me. Every time I just can't quite nail that 100yd zero, it's ALWAYS a loose scope mount, without fail. Maybe I didn't tighten it down enough, maybe I forgot to Loc-tite it, whatever. (Actually, I take it back, I did have a loose screw on my Troy MCS one time that was causing all sorts of weirdness with barrel harmonics.) As you say, tighten that down, and you will almost certainly see results. Maybe my groups will suck, but they'll be consistent in their suckage, and it'll be me responsible, not my gear.

It's real tempting to start with your gun, because we love guns and it's a lot easier and more fun to buy a new barrel or scope than put in the training and practice. But, outside of some known edge cases (such as the Mini-14) or outright defective rifles, modern rifles don't have problems shooting 1-3MOA, which is plenty of room to get started with.

I have a screw loose, but it isn't on my rifle.

Kill it? Or punch a hole in a piece of paper? I'm just recently accepting the 5.56/.223 (soft point) as a CQB/city block range round. Most Africa conflict army's that aren't using the AK's seem to carry .308 like the FAL or H&K. [/Now I can be ignored]

A mini 14 is a great little rifle. It's good for many things but long range shooting isn't one of them. The newer 5xx rifles are about 4 moa and are probably good to about 200 yards. There are shops that specialize in accuratizing minis, but for what you pay, you can get a decent AR these days.

Rc29b1 said:

So im pretty new here, also new to maryland. I bought my first Ar15 several months ago and i love it. Now im looking for something with more accuracy at a longer distance, nothing crazy maybe 400 yrds plus. Ive been told by people at the gun shop and at ranges several different things. The guns ive been told to look at the most are the ruger mini 14 or mini 30 and the sw mp 10.
Anyone have any suggestions??

Click to expand...

I think MOPAR and company have provide great advice. I will just say that an AR can hit a man sized target at 500 meters. I know because when I was in the Army I had to qualify with an M16A1 that fired 55 grain bullets with a 1 in 12 twist barrel. I would expect the sporting AR that you own to be much more accurate with a free-floated barrel and able to fire heavier bullets given the typical barrel twist, and probably a better trigger.

I suggest you contact Ed Shell on this board and arrange a class with him. He can teach you great deal using his loaner rifle. You will be in a much better position to decide what you need before spending money blindly.

Good luck

Jerry

Rc29b1 said:

So im pretty new here, also new to maryland. I bought my first Ar15 several months ago and i love it. Now im looking for something with more accuracy at a longer distance, nothing crazy maybe 400 yrds plus. Ive been told by people at the gun shop and at ranges several different things. The guns ive been told to look at the most are the ruger mini 14 or mini 30 and the sw mp 10.

Anyone have any suggestions??

Click to expand...

OP I really cant add much more to the great advice you have received thus far except that not too long ago I was like you. I stock Delton AR15 with iron sights and a desire to push myself further than 100yds. That desire lead me on a path that started here at MDS and other websites then lead to joining a high power rifle team, and then slowly upgrading my stock rifle. Eventually I purchased other rifles and started shooting even longer distances under Ed Shell at CVT.

Take it slow, read a lot, seek some professional training (a little goes a long way). Dont rush into expensive upgrades but when you do decide to spend the money on any upgrades get the best you can get.

Buy the way the advice that Blacksmith101 provided below is a shining example how awesome people can be here on MDS. It takes a lot of time to provide that depth of info. If you stay engaged in intelligent conversation you'll find a lot of support for your new found interest.

Blacksmith101 said:

There is precision shooting and then there is precision shooting. Meaning the definition of precision varies with what shooting discipline you are discussing.

Precision comes mostly from the "Nut" behind the trigger, that means you. Each shooting platform has its own inherent accuracy which is a result of many factors. For example there are design considerations i.e. a good bolt action will be more accurate than an equally good lever action or semi automatic, a longer barrel will be more accurate than a shorter barrel (with iron sights the longer sight radius of a longer barrel is more accurate); other considerations are the quality of construction. As the ranges get longer the ballistics of the cartridge becomes more important. Then atmospheric conditions start to play a part. The list goes on and on.

So lets start with you.
Get some good basic instruction then find a coach who will help you get better by observing how you shoot and making suggestions for improvements.

Many shooters are not in very good shape and physical condition as well as diet also have an effect, you can probably assess your condition and diet and make any necessary adjustments.

Since you are new to the sport I would also suggest some education so here are some links to help you get started.

Here is the CMP Coaching Resources page, start reading:
http://thecmp.org/training-tech/coaching-resources/

The USAMU Service Rifle Marksmanship Guide:
http://www.nfga.org/highpower/pdfs/basic_highpower_info/SR_Shooting_Guide_AMU031204.pdf

The US Army International Rifle Marksmanship Guide:
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/us army international rifle marksmanship guide.pdf

To get you started on the science of ballistics I suggest starting with the beginnings of modern ballistics, F.W. Mann's book "The Bullet’s Flight From Powder to Target" which although dated gives a basic understanding of the forces involved:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4522233;view=1up;seq=1

Reading these will give you a foundation to build on and will ultimately lead you to more questions and many other sources. Welcome to the world of shooting.

Click to expand...

I agree there are different definitions of precision shooting and accuracy. However the skills are the same with the exception of how fast you need to shoot. When you have all the time in the world, that is precision shooting, sort of like sniper shooting where you want to place the bullet not just hit the target. Something like 3-gun is different. Still requires LR accuracy in many cases but what you are looking for is hitting the target at the fastest possible speed without missing if you can. That is more like military shooting. The former requires proper breathing, a steady slow trigger pull (maybe a 2 stage trigger) and being able to do it exactly the same on the next shot. Now the best 3-gunner often learn precision shooting first. Because its easier to speed up your precision shooting than it is to try to slow down your military style shooting and get the results you want, in my opinion. When I was training for 3-gun my precision goal was to be able to shoot 10 rounds in 10 seconds and get all of them on target at 300 yards, using 55g ammo. I started by just shooting the rifle off a bench at 100 yards to get the feel of it. My scope is a BDC type so I sighted it at 100y till I could make them all just about touch. then So I set up a full body target at 300y and I was satisfied when I could put 8 in the 10 ring and 2 in the 9 ring at 300 when standing and resting the handguard on a plywood barricade (which is often how you have to shoot in 3-gun). All that with a 1-4x24 scope at 4x. Worked when I had to shoot my first match that had 400 yard targets also. Knowing how to read wind also helps (especially in precision shooting).
Learn to shoot precision (or hunting) first so you have some basics. For 5.56 I don't use 69g/77g match ammo unless I have to shoot over 400 yards as I can get anything closer with Wal-Mart 55g Fed red box .223 in my Stag based 3-gun AR. Past 600 yards I will usually use my DMR AR, a 6.8mm SPC II (6.5 Grendel is also a good caliber for this). Past 800 yards is bolt gun territory for me and my Howa 1500 Heavy Varmint in .308. If I had it over again I might have built it in 7mm-08 instead as they can reach 1200 yards where as my .308 was built to max out at 1000 yards.
Some of those guns recommended to you at the stores, frankly, are more for people who can't get it done with regular rifles. Having a decently accurate barrel in your AR will go a long way to getting what you want without breaking the bank. And in my book once you get your existing rifle to a point that even a good shooter can't do much better, then is the time to do some upgrades. The skills that can make an average rifle decent are the same ones that can make a good rifle shoot stellar. You and the rifle are each part of the equation. A good shooter with an average rifle is better than an average shooter with a good rifle.