A warning on carrying spring-assisted knives.

edleary1227 said:

Now I feel better ...

I guess that carrying a brick of C4 would be a bad idea too.

Click to expand...

No its my fault I know the rules

So is this dude still in jail or what?

RIMINAL LAW
TITLE 4. WEAPON CRIMES
SUBTITLE 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS

Md. CRIMINAL LAW Code Ann. § 4-102 (2011)

§ 4-102. Deadly weapons on school property


(a) Exceptions. -- This section does not apply to:

(1) a law enforcement officer in the regular course of the officer's duty;

(2) a person hired by a county board of education specifically for the purpose of guarding public school property;

(3) a person engaged in organized shooting activity for educational purposes; or

(4) a person who, with a written invitation from the school principal, displays or engages in a historical demonstration using a weapon or a replica of a weapon for educational purposes.

(b) Prohibited. -- A person may not carry or possess a firearm, knife, or deadly weapon of any kind on public school property.
(c) Penalty. --

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection, a person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $ 1,000 or both.
(2) A person who is convicted of carrying or possessing a handgun in violation of this section shall be sentenced under Subtitle 2 of this title.

Click to expand...

So technically all the maintenance people and contractors who come to do work at a school are guilty of a crime if they have a knife on them? I don't see anything exempting them from the law?

ffemtreed said:

So technically all the maintenance people and contractors who come to do work at a school are guilty of a crime if they have a knife on them? I don't see anything exempting them from the law?

Click to expand...

#1 in the top ten of Stupid Legislator Tricks ... "or deadly weapon of any kind on public school property."

Pick Axe ???
Garden Weasel ???
Baseball bat ???
Hedge shears ???
Banjo ???

gawd forbid that there might be Twinkies in the school cafeteria's vending machine.

ffemtreed said:

So technically all the maintenance people and contractors who come to do work at a school are guilty of a crime if they have a knife on them? I don't see anything exempting them from the law?

Click to expand...

Not quite, thankfully. While the statute does not express an exception, it has been ruled in the high court is not pure "strict liability." It has reasonable allowances. In Re Melanie 1997, a girl had a butter knife in her locker that she used as a prybar, not a weapon. The Court of Special Appeals ruled thus:

Accordingly, we hold that in order to convict a person of carrying or possessing any rifle, gun, or knife on school property under [CRIMINAL LAW Code Ann. § 4-102], the State must show that the instrument possessed can, under the circumstances of the case, reasonably be considered a deadly weapon. This objective approach is in keeping with the legislative intent to prohibit the possessing and carrying of deadly weapons on public school property and will avoid the regular violation of that statute by students, teachers, and staff who are engaged in the routine performance of their duties at the public schools.

...

It was an all-metal flatware knife which had a blunt edge and a rounded end. The State’s Attorney described it as a “butter knife”; it is obviously not intended for slashing or stabbing. After Mr. Rooney seized the knife, Melanie admitted that it belonged to her and explained that she used it to break into locked food cabinets in the middle of the night at her group home when she was hungry, that is, as a lever rather than a knife.

Under the circumstances of this case, we cannot reasonably conclude that the knife possessed by Melanie was proscribed by the statute, i.e., a knife reasonably adapted for use, or capable of being used, as a deadly weapon. We therefore reverse the judgment of the juvenile court.

Click to expand...

This is why we have such checks and balances in the first place.

For the 50% who don't pay taxes (and receive the services of a public defender) all of this is just an academic exercise. For the rest of us, even an acquittal is a $5,000 or $10,000 fine. I think I am in favor of a "loser pays" rule in the criminal justice system.

buzzzyy said:

Hey yall,


I know a lot of us like the spring assisted knives - they are very useful tools. I use mine many times a day. Well, I used to, before I had it confiscated by the cops.
And of course they don't know that spring assisted knives are not illegal.

Click to expand...

Don't be too sure that spring assisted knives are not illegal. Have your lawyer explain these provisions to you: MD CRIM LAW § 4-101, § 4-101 Dangerous weapons and MD CRIM LAW § 4-105, § 4-105 Transfer of switchblade or shooting knife.

§ 4-101 Dangerous weapons.


(a) Definitions. — (1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.


(2) “Nunchaku” means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length.


(3) (i) “Pepper mace” means an aerosol propelled combination of highly disabling irritant pepper-based products.


(ii) “Pepper mace” is also known as oleoresin capsicum (o.c.) spray.


(4) “Star knife” means a device used as a throwing weapon, consisting of several sharp or pointed blades arrayed as radially disposed arms about a central disk.


(5) (i) “Weapon” includes a dirk knife, bowie knife, switchblade knife, star knife, sandclub, metal knuckles, razor, and nunchaku.


(ii) “Weapon” does not include:


1. a handgun; or


2. a penknife without a switchblade.


(b) Exceptions for certain individuals. — This section does not prohibit the following individuals from carrying a weapon:


(1) an officer of the State, or of any county or municipal corporation of the State, who is entitled or required to carry the weapon as part of the officer's official equipment, or by any conservator of the peace, who is entitled or required to carry the weapon as part of the conservator's official equipment, or by any officer or conservator of the peace of another state who is temporarily in this State;


(2) a special agent of a railroad;


(3) a holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article; or


(4) an individual who carries the weapon as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger, subject to the right of the court in an action arising under this section to judge the reasonableness of the carrying of the weapon, and the proper occasion for carrying it, under the evidence in the case.


(c) Prohibited. — (1) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.


(2) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon, chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device openly with the intent or purpose of injuring an individual in an unlawful manner.


(3) (i) This paragraph applies in Anne Arundel County, Baltimore County, Caroline County, Cecil County, Harford County, Kent County, Montgomery County, Prince George's County, St. Mary's County, Talbot County, Washington County, and Worcester County.


(ii) A minor may not carry a dangerous weapon between 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour before sunrise, whether concealed or not, except while:


1. on a bona fide hunting trip; or


2. engaged in or on the way to or returning from a bona fide trap shoot, sport shooting event, or any organized civic or military activity.


(d) Penalties. — (1) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $1,000 or both.

§ 4-105 Transfer of switchblade or shooting knife.


(a) Prohibited. — A person may not sell, barter, display, or offer to sell or barter:


(1) a knife or a penknife having a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, commonly called a switchblade knife or a switchblade penknife; or

ffemtreed said:

So technically all the maintenance people and contractors who come to do work at a school are guilty of a crime if they have a knife on them? I don't see anything exempting them from the law?

Click to expand...

In practice, the courts and police don't enforce the ban against tools of the trade. But, yes, they could be charged I know a HVAC contractor who was arrested for having a 10 inch blade in his car even though he used it in his work and was coming home that night from work. Eventually, they dropped the charges after they accepted that it was a tool, but he went to court. And that was not spring assisted. I won't give legal advice but I personally don't ever carry any spring assisted blade.

@ esqappellate

[FONT=&quot]Welcome from Dundalk![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Head on over here and introduce yourself: Introductions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Take a look at these links – LOTS of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]amazing[/FONT][FONT=&quot] info!

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]FORUM RULES[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Helpful Hints Video[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Range Etiquette and Staying Safe[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Admin News and Announcements[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Gun Rights and Legislation[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Industry Partners[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Maryland Ranges[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]MDS Logo Gear[/FONT][/FONT]

About a year ago, I called the State Police Barrack in Rockville and talked to the Duty Sgt and asked him about a Kershaw Assisted Opening Knife. He said "any assisted knife is illegal.

Is he legally correct, don't know? In any event I went ahead and purchased one from REI.

platoonDaddy said:

About a year ago, I called the State Police Barrack in Rockville and talked to the Duty Sgt and asked him about a Kershaw Assisted Opening Knife. He said "any assisted knife is illegal.

Is he legally correct, don't know? In any event I went ahead and purchased one from REI.

Click to expand...

1. Don't count on the police. Their advice may or may not be correct. And if it is wrong, that won't estop the prosecution

2. Ownership is not illegal. In those counties that are mentioned, it is the carrying that is illegal. (PS. this is not legal advice. Don't rely on it).

Oh FFS people, yes, of course there are cops out there that don't have a clue what the law is. This shouldn't be news to anybody here.

Assisted openers are NOT switchblades. By definition a switchblade involves applying pressure to something on the HANDLE - assisted openers operate by having to apply pressure to the blade itself.

Does this mean some cops won't be ignorant, and you'll have to hire a lawyer to prove it in court? Sure, maybe, but so what? I've never heard of it happening outside of what I thought I recalled being a MD case where the judge ruled that AOs were not switchblades, and the defendant ultimately ended up successfully suing the local police for wrongful arrest, resulting in a memo going out reminding officers that AOs are not switchblades. Maybe that was another state? That wouldn't make sense though, since this is a MD law... I dunno.

I am confused now. Are assisted knifes legal or not ? I just got a ZT 350 and I should know.

Ethan83 said:

Oh FFS people, yes, of course there are cops out there that don't have a clue what the law is. This shouldn't be news to anybody here.

Assisted openers are NOT switchblades. By definition a switchblade involves applying pressure to something on the HANDLE - assisted openers operate by having to apply pressure to the blade itself.

Does this mean some cops won't be ignorant, and you'll have to hire a lawyer to prove it in court? Sure, maybe, but so what? I've never heard of it happening outside of what I thought I recalled being a MD case where the judge ruled that AOs were not switchblades, and the defendant ultimately ended up successfully suing the local police for wrongful arrest, resulting in a memo going out reminding officers that AOs are not switchblades. Maybe that was another state? That wouldn't make sense though, since this is a MD law... I dunno.

Click to expand...

Interesting distinction, viz., between the handle and the blade itself. Love to find that case you mention -- sounds like an unreported circuit court decision. The question I would have is whether a spring loaded blade qualified as a switchblade when the blade is folded into the handle and the spring is activated by pressing on the blade (as opposed to a button located somewhere else). After all, the blade is *in* the handle at that point and handle could be broadly construed to include the blade when it is folded inside the handle. I have not found any Maryland case law on it but I didn't have time to look for very long. Did find this case which held that a buck knife was a penknife, not a switchblade. That this apparently straight-forward question had to be resolved by the Maryland Court of Appeals (Md's highest court) suggests that a prosecutor was not shy about pushing the edges. And not without some reason -- the lower court had held that a buck knife *was* a switchblade. Bacon v. State
322 Md. 140, 586 A.2d 18 Md.,1991.
However some of the language in Bacon ay be relevant. For example, in Bacon, the court of appeals quoted from Webster's to state: Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language (unabridged) (1981) states that a switchblade knife is “a pocketknife having the blade spring-operated so that pressure on a release catch causes it to fly open [from its position folded in the handle].” This suggests (but does not appear to hold) that the operative fact is the spring, not the location of the button that operates the spring....

Mtairy Biker said:

I am confused now. Are assisted knifes legal or not ? I just got a ZT 350 and I should know.

Click to expand...

You are in Frederick county? Note that the prohibition only applies to the listed counties: (3) (i) This paragraph applies in Anne Arundel County, Baltimore County, Caroline County, Cecil County, Harford County, Kent County, Montgomery County, Prince George's County, St. Mary's County, Talbot County, Washington County, and Worcester County.

I reiterate, the law may be fuzzy on this. Personally, I would not carry a spring assisted blade into any of these counties. Simply is not worth the potential hassle. Even if it is legal, it may take an appellate decision to establish it and that is big $$$ in lawyers fees alone. This is not legal advice.

Mtairy Biker said:

I am confused now. Are assisted knifes legal or not ? I just got a ZT 350 and I should know.

Click to expand...

You are fine.
By the very definition written into the law it is not a switchblade.
There is nothing in the handle you push.
The blade must be started open before the spring takes over to help.
Some police may not know the difference and may hassle you.
If that happens let your lawyer handle it and expect to be cleared and compensated.

esqappellate said:

And not without some reason -- the lower court had held that a buck knife *was* a switchblade. Bacon v. State
322 Md. 140, 586 A.2d 18 Md.,1991.
However some of the language in Bacon ay be relevant. For example, in Bacon, the court of appeals quoted from Webster's to state: Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language (unabridged) (1981) states that a switchblade knife is “a pocketknife having the blade spring-operated so that pressure on a release catch causes it to fly open [from its position folded in the handle].” This suggests (but does not appear to hold) that the operative fact is the spring, not the location of the button that operates the spring....

Click to expand...

Not so fast. The lower court convicted Mr. Bacon under language that is now 4-101, "carry[ing] a dangerous weapon openly, to wit: knife, with the intent of injuring a person in an unlawful manner." The lower court simply ruled the "buck knife" was a dangerous weapon that was not a penknife because it locked open and because it was carried with it's blade already open for purposes of attack. The high court practically ridiculed the stupidity of this decision and reversed it. From the record I read, the only reason the lower court got away with it is the knife itself was never even introduced into evidence because the police "lost" in evidence storage. All they had was a vague description. Furthermore, there is this little gem:

The State first suggests that "the penknife exception is properly read to apply only to the offense of carrying a concealed weapon." This posture is bootless. It is firmly established that "'the beginning point of statutory construction is the language of the statute itself.'"

Click to expand...

Translation, "Hey Mr. S.A.! Read the &$@!ing law!"

Still, that a high court ruling was even needed for such a thing is frankly a bit worrying.

The other case I think someone referenced was Sorrell v McGuigan. It was a federal case where a cop arrested someone for a concealed 3" penknife. It was neither an AO nor a switchblade. The cop simply thought he was empowered to arbitrarily declare any folder a dangerous weapon on his own discretion. Not only was the case against the defendant thrown out, the man sued in federal court and won. And it was upheld on appeal. The event cost the overenthusiastic cop his badge. A major victory for knife carry, but sadly does not address the AO issue.

Let me put it this way: Several times a year I work directly alongside Gaithersburg PD (This is Montgomery County we're talking here) openly wearing a Kershaw Leek for many years now, and they've never said anything - including the ones that I've had conversations with and who were carrying Kershaw Leeks in their own pockets, so they knew damn well what I have.

There is no provision for switchblades to be used as anything other than a weapon in the law, unlike, for example, fixed blade knives, so it was not the fact that I was on-the-job that could have justified a type of knife that would otherwise be considered a weapon.

If the Chief of freaking Police and every other beat cop in Gaithersburg in Montgomery County has no problem with AOs, I don't know who on earth would. Maybe if you're already getting in trouble with the law and they're looking for another charge to throw on you - but is there even any evidence of anybody actually being arrested for carrying a weapon that was an AO knife? I've never heard of it (other than the scenario I recalled in the previous post that may or may not have even been in MD, if I even heard the story correctly in the first place)

Just read the last post before my previous one... The case that poster describes may very well be the one that I have referenced (and apparently didn't recall quite correctly).

Cai said:

I hope everything works out for you. On the bright side I think that the "yanking out of your pocket thing" is an illegal search. I'm not sure about that however... Best of luck!

Click to expand...

incorrect. plain view. there is no search if it is in plain view. also, you were already being questioned. that knife was taken for his safety. no matter who you are dealing with, you treat every situation as if it could go horribly wrong. i cant say anything about the charges, not knowing the particulars. but that knife being taken away during the course of the conversation was basically SOP/CYA.

edit: wow im late on this one