So Where's the Beef?

In the light of recent thread 'hijacks', it was suggested that someone start their own thread(of grievances), specifically addressing the Patriot Pickets and their actions.

Let me start off by saying, I have many friends in the PP and I realize my following criticisms may destroy many of those relations. Please note, I am not alone in these criticisms. Please also know that I don't make a habit of running around telling others how they should conduct themselves, but this has been on my mind.

A couple observations/suggestions(with all due respect); If you are going to 'get off the porch and run with the big dogs', plan on getting bitten a few times. It comes with the territory. That means , not only expect it, plan for it. The enemy never plays fair. Don't get indignant when you get nipped. Take your lumps and move on. There are plenty of us willing to help if need be, but that help should never be assumed. If you can't personally back your own actions, think twice about taking them. Remember, the enemy cheats. There's no room for acrimony.

Here's the one that grinds me; Stop playing to their narrative(admittedly, I have no clear solution for this one, but that's why I'm not in this business). When I watch the very well produced videos of the PPs, I can't help but see the same thing, over and over again; For the most part, group of old, fat, angry white men[clinging to their guns and religion]. It is inescapable. "Well, you've never been to a Patriot Picket. What do you know!?" Exactly my point. I see the same thing anyone watching the local nightly news is seeing. It ain't pretty. The best you can walk away with, in my opinion, is a draw. That ain't good enough and would rarely be the case.

These are my unsolicited observations, put into words, as best I could. I didn't come here to poke and prod, call anybody out, nor attach blame. Sometimes, it takes an outside observer to help refocus an effort. That is the intended purpose of this post. I offer no solutions. Merely introspection. What are the absolute goals of the Patriot Pickets in real terms? Hopefully other things will come to light through friendly discussion.

outrider58 said:

In the light of recent thread 'hijacks', it was suggested that someone start their own thread(of grievances), specifically addressing the Patriot Pickets and their actions.

Let me start off by saying, I have many friends in the PP and I realize my following criticisms may destroy many of those relations. Please note, I am not alone in these criticisms. Please also know that I don't make a habit of running around telling others how they should conduct themselves, but this has been on my mind.

A couple observations/suggestions(with all due respect); If you are going to 'get off the porch and run with the big dogs', plan on getting bitten a few times. It comes with the territory. That means , not only expect it, plan for it. The enemy never plays fair. Don't get indignant when you get nipped. Take your lumps and move on. There are plenty of us willing to help if need be, but that help should never be assumed. If you can't personally back your own actions, think twice about taking them. Remember, the enemy cheats. There's no room for acrimony.

Here's the one that grinds me; Stop playing to their narrative(admittedly, I have no clear solution for this one, but that's why I'm not in this business). When I watch the very well produced videos of the PPs, I can't help but see the same thing, over and over again; For the most part, group of old, fat, angry white men[clinging to their guns and religion]. It is inescapable. "Well, you've never been to a Patriot Picket. What do you know!?" Exactly my point. I see the same thing anyone watching the local nightly news is seeing. It ain't pretty. The best you can walk away with, in my opinion, is a draw. That ain't good enough and would rarely be the case.

These are my unsolicited observations, put into words, as best I could. I didn't come here to poke and prod, call anybody out, nor attach blame. Sometimes, it takes an outside observer to help refocus an effort. That is the intended purpose of this post. I offer no solutions. Merely introspection. What are the absolute goals of the Patriot Pickets in real terms? Hopefully other things will come to light through friendly discussion.

Click to expand...

I don't have any answers, but I'll gladly watch for "friendly discussion"

I come to these events to stand for my second amendment rights. Those that don’t agree with my beliefs can state that to my face and I will gladly listen to what you have to say. However my interpretation of the constitution and bill of rights won’t change what I believe in. I have spent many hours with MSI and the Patriot Pickets standing up for what I believe in . I know that most of the folk that we interact with have totally different beliefs and because this is America they have that right. Doesn’t make them right. Always take the high road and you will never have to apologize for your actions.

This thread should be elsewhere.

Being old, (somewhat less)fat and powerless to defend myself, and truly revolted by the nature of politics in this state, I go to PP events in order to show the face of opposition to the GA, to support freedoms in which I believe, to answer such questions as may be put to me, to learn to deal with irrational opprobrium, and to personally annoy our elected representatives.

You may ask whether it does any good, or in fact harms the causes which we support.

Maintaining a genteel aspect and humbly begging our representatives to at least consider the words in their oath of office has had little effect. Maintaining a public presence, pointing out major fallacies in their poorly-crafted legislation, and being able to draw on those here on this site who wish to become at least somewhat active in regaining that which has been taken from us, has at least marginally improved our situation relative to what the GA would like to do to infringe on our freedoms.

It should be noted that Rack and Stoveman have developed personal relationships with some of our delegates and senators, which has aided in moving at least some of our agenda forward.

There's only so much that can be done. I send money to select politicians, and organisations like NRA, SAF, GOA and Judicial Watch. It seems worthwhile to put a human face forward, to challenge the degraded status quo, and generally let people know that they are not alone in their frustration with the antics of theatrical politicians.

Not everyone who attends these PP events has the same reasons or motivations, but we all support the same ideals. I can't say I agree with every aspect of what goes down, but I strongly feel that something has to be done. So I do this. I also support MSI, both financially and in person at the occasional gun show.

Some of what we do really bothers people. Thankfully, most of the people it bothers do many things which bother me, so turnabout is more than fair.

At the very least, I make a visible public stand for what I believe in: personal freedom, liberty and justice for all.



I should point out that some of the PP group are not old, nor fat. Some are even female. All are sincere.

.

I have been quite clear that I only stand with The PP on issues I agree with. I have no issues with openly walking away from PP events I disagree with.
Rack can confirm I have sent him multiple WTF texts and PM's.
I am a outspoken PP member.

Excellent post Bob A.

While we are waiting on thread relocation I'll offer up a thought.

Are a good portion of the PP OFWGs? Sure, but look at the demographic of MDS which is primarily, but not exclusively, where we advertise. Last I checked our founding fathers also had a fair representation of OFWGs who had the stones to look the Crown in the eye and say "F You!"

Our PP videographer is fighting a health battle and has not been able to produce his excellent PP videos recently but if he had I'm sure that Mrs Art3, Mrs Rab1515, Raina, Char Selby and Elizabeth Najjer to name just a few might object to being described with that adjective.

Would we like to have more of the fairer sex, minorities and members of the LGBT community with us? Of course we would and have worked tirelessly to make that happen and it is bearing some fruit. But when the call goes out we roll with who shows up.

Unlike institutions of higher learning we don't have a quota system and are not going to cancel an opportunity to give Frosh heartburn because we didn't have enough women, blacks or gay folk show up.

There are other issues at play here that haven't been touched on in this thread, but have been spoken about in numerous other threads. But then again it seems as if head in the sand and my way or the highway is normal, instead of trying to get more people to join.

I personally couldn't care less if it fractures my friendships with those that are part of the PP. We were friends before it and if the PP is a dealbreaker for friendship, then that is on them and no hair off my back.

outrider58 said:

In the light of recent thread 'hijacks', it was suggested that someone start their own thread(of grievances), specifically addressing the Patriot Pickets and their actions.

Let me start off by saying, I have many friends in the PP and I realize my following criticisms may destroy many of those relations. Please note, I am not alone in these criticisms. Please also know that I don't make a habit of running around telling others how they should conduct themselves, but this has been on my mind.

A couple observations/suggestions(with all due respect); If you are going to 'get off the porch and run with the big dogs', plan on getting bitten a few times. It comes with the territory. That means , not only expect it, plan for it. The enemy never plays fair. Don't get indignant when you get nipped. Take your lumps and move on. There are plenty of us willing to help if need be, but that help should never be assumed. If you can't personally back your own actions, think twice about taking them. Remember, the enemy cheats. There's no room for acrimony.

Here's the one that grinds me; Stop playing to their narrative(admittedly, I have no clear solution for this one, but that's why I'm not in this business). When I watch the very well produced videos of the PPs, I can't help but see the same thing, over and over again; For the most part, group of old, fat, angry white men[clinging to their guns and religion]. It is inescapable. "Well, you've never been to a Patriot Picket. What do you know!?" Exactly my point. I see the same thing anyone watching the local nightly news is seeing. It ain't pretty. The best you can walk away with, in my opinion, is a draw. That ain't good enough and would rarely be the case.

These are my unsolicited observations, put into words, as best I could. I didn't come here to poke and prod, call anybody out, nor attach blame. Sometimes, it takes an outside observer to help refocus an effort. That is the intended purpose of this post. I offer no solutions. Merely introspection. What are the absolute goals of the Patriot Pickets in real terms? Hopefully other things will come to light through friendly discussion.

Click to expand...

I answered of lot of the questions in this OP in another thread just a few hours ago, but it got deleted in the big Wipe Out during yet another thread hijack/derailment.

I take responsibility for the Patriot Picket direction because I was the one who started a thread several years ago to say I was done with backpedaling.

I asked who wanted to participate in an Inside/Outside operation that involved shaming Democrats trying to push infringement wet-dream law through the legislature. In our first two "seasons" working the bricks while others worked the halls, the Democrats were 0-for-22 on major infringement legislation.

It is not possible to gauge what the PP does through the Maryland Shooters looking glass. You admit you don't care to participate, but you watch some of the "PP videos" and see some of the pictures.

The Patriot Picket tactics are designed to occupy space on media platforms. The best example was August 4th at the "March On The NRA". Had we not been there, the media would have given 100% of the coverage to David Hogg and his lackeys. Most TV news stories are 3 minutes and ALL 3 minutes would have been lavished on their speeches, their insulting infringement signs and their acting out.

Instead, our messaging and availability of Mrs. Rab1515 and Tyler Yzaguirre (both HALF my age) earned us about HALF of the TV coverage time for the March. Mrs. Rab posted that she had done numerous on-camera interviews, and some with international video crews.

So the ANTIs lost half of the airtime to spew, and we earned that half of the airtime to demonstrate that the firearms rights issue HAS TWO SIDES that both want to be heard.

The people who participate "on the bricks" SEE the media interviews being conducted that are likely playing on outlets you don't watch. The Patriot Picket is a consequential tree falling in the forest, but you don't know it! This happens repeatedly.

Another example was the Red Hen restaurant picket in Lexington VA last month. We were covered by local TV news who put up their footage of us and it got distributed on skads of websites you don't look at.

Same for the "Rally Against Firearms" at the US Capitol earlier this summer. We stood a silent watch with our signs and captured a significant part of the network/cable coverage that the organizers planned to be just a day of young people bellyaching about guns.

Interviews with The Patriot Picket derail one-sided coverage, and often our signs--which we think are clever--are favored by video editors over scenes of people just standing around on the ANTI side.

At the same time we are occupying news media space, our Patriot Picket Facebook page--which just passed 3.2 MILLION visits, is filled with comments that we are firing up the "freedom brigades" spread all over the country. We are even getting comments from Canadians.

It is simply not possible to get the measure of the Patriot Picket through the MDS glass, and people who don't participate never see the great number of press interviews, the interactions that amp up our side, or the conversations that swing the undecided over to our viewpoint.

Originally Posted by ourider58:

A couple observations/suggestions(with all due respect); If you are going to 'get off the porch and run with the big dogs', plan on getting bitten a few times. It comes with the territory. That means , not only expect it, plan for it. The enemy never plays fair. Don't get indignant when you get nipped. Take your lumps and move on. There are plenty of us willing to help if need be, but that help should never be assumed. If you can't personally back your own actions, think twice about taking them. Remember, the enemy cheats. There's no room for acrimony.

Click to expand...

Please, what does mean, specifically the bolded phrases?

You are being too obsequious...spill it, brother...

Stoveman said:

Excellent post Bob A.

While we are waiting on thread relocation I'll offer up a thought.

Are a good portion of the PP OFWGs? Sure, but look at the demographic of MDS which is primarily, but not exclusively, where we advertise. Last I checked our founding fathers also had a fair representation of OFWGs who had the stones to look the Crown in the eye and say "F You!"

Our PP videographer is fighting a health battle and has not been able to produce his excellent PP videos recently but if he had I'm sure that Mrs Art3, Mrs Rab1515, Raina, Char Selby and Elizabeth Najjer to name just a few might object to being described with that adjective.

Would we like to have more of the fairer sex, minorities and members of the LGBT community with us? Of course we would and have worked tirelessly to make that happen and it is bearing some fruit. But when the call goes out we roll with who shows up.

Unlike institutions of higher learning we don't have a quota system and are not going to cancel an opportunity to give Frosh heartburn because we didn't have enough women, blacks or gay folk show up.

Click to expand...

Knovotny That's kinda funny, as an aside...when we get carry out, she usually calls it in and leaves her name, Katie. I go in to pick it up, and get to use my favorite Dad/Griswold joke: "I'm Mr. Katie" For some reason, the cashiers don't think it's as clever as I do but that doesn't stop me.

More to the point, sure there may be a few details about the PP that we don't 100% agree with...or maybe ways we'd do it differently if we were running things. But we aren't running things, and we don't have to agree 100% to still like and support something. It would be hard to have friends or keep a job if we had to agree 100% with 100% of what we were involved with.

Some of the signs are a little too aggressive for our tastes. As Bob A pointed out, PP has long history with our representatives which we don't know the details of. Maybe the critters deserve the more pointed attack. We don't know enough about that to attack personally. We'd be more comfortable trying to win hearts and minds, and since they are liberal hearts and minds, you have to be careful with their feewings. Our simple solution when we were in Annapolis was to make our own signs, with our own message that we could explain and defend with 100% confidence without pause or a second thought. There were plenty of folks willing to carry the "mean" signs (and good for them!); nobody objected to us playing along in our own way.

As to everybody getting along on here... Good grief! We can't even all agree to vote for the only Republican running for governor.

We'll certainly continue to support PP with our feet when we can, and our checkbook when needed.

So do we do nothing because many 2A defenders happen to be old, fat, white men??

I started going last winter, and sometimes I was the only female, sometimes I wasn't. I wish I could attend more events, but summer is busy. I have never been made to feel bad for not going to something.

Have there been signs I don't care for? Absolutely. So I bring my own to say what I want to say. I get photographed a lot, so I do want to be the opposite of the stereotype. Not because there is anything wrong with fat old white men, but because it attracts attention. That's what I'm there for. And if I can attract someone to talk to me who may be intimidated by others, even better.

Standing on the bricks in Annapolis, it was amazing to see some of the guys chatting with the Legiscritters. They knew these people, and that can't be bad.

Maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea, but why is it so hard to just keep scrolling if you don't have any interest in taking part? Instead of criticizing, how about offering ideas, or being that change you want to see. If you want to see diversity, bring some people that you want to see. If you want to see different signs or clothes, show up with what you want to display.

DaemonAssassin said:

There are other issues at play here that haven't been touched on in this thread, but have been spoken about in numerous other threads. But then again it seems as if head in the sand and my way or the highway is normal, instead of trying to get more people to join.

I personally couldn't care less if it fractures my friendships with those that are part of the PP. We were friends before it and if the PP is a dealbreaker for friendship, then that is on them and no hair off my back.

Click to expand...

The Patriot Picket was never designed to be the Big Tent 2A project that some people may wish it could be.

It was set up from the get-go to be confrontational with our messaging to put the Democrats on defense.

There are several reasons why MDS folks can't, or won't participate. First, I don't expect the MDS members from Western MD or far down the Eastern Shore to join in, for all the obvious reasons.

As for you DA, and many in Central Maryland who don't join in.... the reason is simple: you don't want to. Either you find it too confrontational or "joining" is not your thing or there is what follows below....

It's important to just get this out: it's clear that many of the "usual suspects" criticizing us here on this forum are...Democrats! (Duh, it's not our imagination that every grandstanding INFRINGER is a... Democrat.)

So, we line up against them, and if that hurts the feelings of the Trump-hating, dyed-in-the-wool Democrat voters who happen to be members here, well, there's not a thing we can do.

You won't stand with us, so we ain't losing sleep over it.

Art3 said:

Knovotny That's kinda funny, as an aside...when we get carry out, she usually calls it in and leaves her name, Katie. I go in to pick it up, and get to use my favorite Dad/Griswold joke: "I'm Mr. Katie" For some reason, the cashiers don't think it's as clever as I do but that doesn't stop me.

More to the point, sure there may be a few details about the PP that we don't 100% agree with...or maybe ways we'd do it differently if we were running things. But we aren't running things, and we don't have to agree 100% to still like and support something. It would be hard to have friends or keep a job if we had to agree 100% with 100% of what we were involved with.

Some of the signs are a little too aggressive for our tastes. As Bob A pointed out, PP has long history with our representatives which we don't know the details of. Maybe the critters deserve the more pointed attack. We don't know enough about that to attack personally. We'd be more comfortable trying to win hearts and minds, and since they are liberal hearts and minds, you have to be careful with their feewings. Our simple solution when we were in Annapolis was to make our own signs, with our own message that we could explain and defend with 100% confidence without pause or a second thought. There were plenty of folks willing to carry the "mean" signs (and good for them!); nobody objected to us playing along in our own way.

As to everybody getting along on here... Good grief! We can't even all agree to vote for the only Republican running for governor.

We'll certainly continue to support PP with our feet when we can, and our checkbook when needed.

Click to expand...

See why I married this guy!!

We both care enough to stay up entirely too late reading MDShooters, while a gun show plays on the tv, while apparently typing responses to the same thread at about the same time.

knovotny said:

See why I married this guy!!

We both care enough to stay up entirely too late reading MDShooters, while a gun show plays on the tv, while apparently typing responses to the same thread at about the same time.

Click to expand...

But Mr. Katie is going to bed now...

knovotny said:

See why I married this guy!!

We both care enough to stay up entirely too late reading MDShooters, while a gun show plays on the tv, while apparently typing responses to the same thread at about the same time.

Click to expand...

Art3 said:

But Mr. Katie is going to bed now...

Click to expand...

You guys are freakin' awesome.

knovotny said:

See why I married this guy!!

We both care enough to stay up entirely too late reading MDShooters, while a gun show plays on the tv, while apparently typing responses to the same thread at about the same time.

Click to expand...

Art3 said:

But Mr. Katie is going to bed now...

Click to expand...

Stoveman said:

You guys are freakin' awesome.

Click to expand...

Two of the most cheerful people I know, and it is a great time whenever we join up!

Everyone obviously has a 1st amendment right to freedom of speech, but there's something about this thread that seems wrong. Do we really need to have a PP complaint thread? Isn't this something that could be better handled with a 1 on 1 conversation?

gprimr1 said:

Everyone obviously has a 1st amendment right to freedom of speech, but there's something about this thread that seems wrong. Do we really need to have a PP complaint thread? Isn't this something that could be better handled with a 1 on 1 conversation?

Click to expand...

Because 1 on 1 won't work. It's that simple. They stepped on too many members toes and those members have the right to voice those complaints.

PP isn't supposed to be the totality of the 2A movement, it's an additional approach not replacing the others .

PP participants can and do select which events to participate , and what specific messages to convey .

All like minded people are welcome and encouraged to attend and participate . If people are of a certain age or certain girth , we should self censor ourselves from public discourse ?

And Biggfootette , who is opposite of old fat guy, can't attend as often because of scheduling , she has also been tv interviewed at PP events .