MD Resident buying a handgun from out of state resident (Private Sale)

Not_an_outlaw · Mar 4, 2017

The case law on this matter is bad and that is not sarcasm. When I read it, it looked like those who wrote it didn't understand the concept. I saw nothing wrong in that case. It should have been if the gun was purchased for someone who cannot legally own one, then that would be illegal. It defined straw purchase so broadly, that sending your sister to the 7-Eleven to get cigarettes because you were unable to get to the store is a straw purchase. Same analysis with booze. That is the only interpretation that makes sense. The courts (and prosecutors) are completely out of control. They completely ignored the intent of the law.

So, if you buy a gun with the intention of willing it to your child, is that a straw purchase. According to case law, maybe! (Think Maryland Courts)

Biggfoot44 · Mar 5, 2017

( Somebody help me with the cite) The recent notorious Federal conviction happened almost exactly as the OP is proposing :

Person A was able to purchase a Glock for discount price from dealer local to him.

Person A did so for the purpose of further conveying it to Person B , who is not Prohibited Person.

Said gun was then transfered to Person B, using FFL in B's state, in a manner that would normally be legal.

Conviction for Straw Purchase.

Doesn't matter if the recieving person is otherwise able to purchase, and FFLs were used. The Federal Offense is triggered when the initial purchaser initials, and signs the 4473 that he is the actual purchaser .

OP already stated he had his friend purchase FOR HIM (OP).

Do I "like" that ruling ? No . Do I think that is how things should be, or otherwise defend the wisdom of such laws and regulations ? No. But it is what it is , and we have to deal with the current laws.

CMOS · Mar 5, 2017

The NRA had a blog post on this scenario last summer. It's a straw purchase.

"For example, in one case, someone bought a gun for a relative who lived in another state, because he could get a better price on the gun in his state. So that he didn’t violate the separate federal law against one non-FFL providing a gun to another non-FFL who lives in another state, he shipped the gun to a dealer in the other person’s state, so a background check could be conducted. Nevertheless, he was convicted of an illegal straw purchase, simply because he bought the gun on behalf of the other person."

https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2016/7/buying-and-selling-firearms-part-6-straw-purchases/

If you buy a gun with the intent to flip it and make a profit later (maybe the next day) that is not a straw purchase because the purchase is not on "behalf of another person" (to quote the 4473). That purchase was for you, on your own behalf, because nobody else requested that you buy it.

The case, which went to the Supreme Court, is Abramski v. United States
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States
So yes, this is a straw purchase according to the Supreme Court.

For example, Col Kurtz insults Capt Willard, saying he is basically a straw purchaser ("You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.")
Or a gun in this case. Don't do that.

The only sensible next post would be the OP saying that the plan is off, thanking the team here for keeping him out of the orange jumpsuit, and introducing himself.

Biggfoot44 · Mar 5, 2017

Yeah, Abramski, that's the one.

RoadDawg · Mar 5, 2017

TheAmericanPlumber said:
So re reading some of my replys I can see how you could come to that conclusion let me clarify
He is purchasing the gun through a FFL dealer in DE for himself
And then I am buying the gun from him and transferring it through a FFL dealer and waiting the required waiting period.

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Sorry...

That meets the Federal definition of a Straw Purchase.

If you had gone to the store and arranged to buy the pistol yourself and have it sent from that store (FFL) to a Maryland store (FFL) where the transfer would be completed to you legally. You would be in the clear.

But if he has already purchased the pistol and filled out the transfer/purchase in his state affirming that he was to be the end user/owner (FFF 4473 11 a.)

Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are
acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.

... selling it to you now will be illegal.

AIUI... A Police Officer was recently found guilty of the same thing when he bought a discounted pistol for his father who lived in another state. He then sold/transferred the pistol to his father through an FFL. He was arrested and lost.

BUFF7MM · Mar 5, 2017

Don't sweat it, just do it since you already know the answer! You've only had five or six people tell you it's a straw purchase. I'm wondering why you insist on saying its legal when you come here to ask the question, then you get several answers you don't like but still insist your right.
I'll ask this question here now so we all know, do you think you'll have access to the Internet in Club Fed so you can come back and tell us we were right. :rolleyes:

TheAmericanPlumber · Mar 5, 2017

Before everyone started stating case flames I was not insisting everyone else was wrong I was trying to clarify my wording the. Clarify the answer from others. I also went and talked to 2 FFL dealers who stated to me that for them this sounded perfectly legal before you all started posting cases and basically calling me dumb for trying to clarify the situation because I was under the understanding from PM's that my wording could be misinterpreted.

Either way

CMOS said:
If you buy a gun with the intent to flip it and make a profit later (maybe the next day) that is not a straw purchase because the purchase is not on "behalf of another person" (to quote the 4473).

In all reality how would anyone be able to tell if the gun in DE has intent to flip it and make a profit. He bought it to flip it and make a profit and heard his friend in a different state was looking for a gun so he ups the price he bought it for yet still underpriced based on what the guy in MD can get locally and sells it to him through a MD FFL the very next day. I still don't see how that is any different from my situation. Regardless I will probably be purchasing the gun myself in DE and having it shipped to my local FFL anyway because the Gun Shop I go to said for the transfer to take place for them the seller would have to overnight the gun to the store and not bring it in person. So that alone makes the money saving not worth the price of shipping overnight.

And again no where was I saying you all were wrong just trying to clarify my statement and your points, as well as things I heard from 2 separate FFL dealers locally to me.

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Hit and Run · Mar 5, 2017

Best is to buy it yourself and avoid any doubt

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TheAmericanPlumber · Mar 5, 2017

Hit and Run said:
Best is to buy it yourself and avoid any doubt

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Yeah since the local shops around me informed me about the shipping policy
I will be going to the shop myself and having the gun sent to the FFL locally to me.

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dad4 · Mar 5, 2017

Why not convince your friend that he could make an extra $5 if he sold you the Glock? If he is like most enterprising Americans he will see the wisdom in "flipping" to make some beer money. Have it legally transferred wait 7 days and enjoy your new handgun.

TheAmericanPlumber · Mar 5, 2017

dad4 said:
Why not convince your friend that he could make an extra $5 if he sold you the Glock? If he is like most enterprising Americans he will see the wisdom in "flipping" to make some beer money. Have it legally transferred wait 7 days and enjoy your new handgun.

This is precisely something like I was trying to clarify. What is the difference in buying the gun to flip and transfer legally and buying the gun to save your friend money and transfer legally
By many of your responses the answer to "are you the buyer/owner of this gun" would still be NO because in both cases you plan to sell the gun to someone else.
Just seems very confusing.

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gmharle · Mar 5, 2017

According to ATF Publication 5300.4 this would only be a straw purchase if the OP gave his friend the money to make the purchase on his behalf. It says nothing about purchasing a firearm with the intent to sell it to someone else either known or unknown at the time of filling out the 4473.

TheAmericanPlumber · Mar 5, 2017

gmharle said:
According to ATF Publication 5300.4 this would only be a straw purchase if the OP gave his friend the money to make the purchase on his behalf. It says nothing about purchasing a firearm with the intent to sell it to someone else either known or unknown at the time of filling out the 4473.

This is what other FFL have told me that as long as I'm not paying for him to buy the gun and he is filling out all the forums for himself its completely fine. I don't get how it can be fine to purchase a gun with the intent to flip it the next day but then like if your not making any money on it and selling it the next day than it's a straw purchase.
Not really clearly defined in anyway.

But this is along the lines of what my Local FFL have told me

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gmharle · Mar 5, 2017

In the Abramski v. US case cited earlier the issue was that the uncle sent a check to cover the purchase to the police officer prior to the transaction making it a straw purchase under the current law.

rseymorejr · Mar 5, 2017

TheAmericanPlumber said:
This is precisely something like I was trying to clarify. What is the difference in buying the gun to flip and transfer legally and buying the gun to save your friend money and transfer legally
By many of your responses the answer to "are you the buyer/owner of this gun" would still be NO because in both cases you plan to sell the gun to someone else.
Just seems very confusing.

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When your friend filled out the 4473 he swore that he was the actual purchaser. If he bought with the intention of reselling to you, he broke the law. It's really as simple as that.

kraftyone · Mar 5, 2017

Biggfoot44 said:
( Somebody help me with the cite) The recent notorious Federal conviction happened almost exactly as the OP is proposing :

Person A was able to purchase a Glock for discount price from dealer local to him.

Person A did so for the purpose of further conveying it to Person B , who is not Prohibited Person.

Said gun was then transfered to Person B, using FFL in B's state, in a manner that would normally be legal.

Conviction for Straw Purchase.

Doesn't matter if the recieving person is otherwise able to purchase, and FFLs were used. The Federal Offense is triggered when the initial purchaser initials, and signs the 4473 that he is the actual purchaser .

OP already stated he had his friend purchase FOR HIM (OP).

Do I "like" that ruling ? No . Do I think that is how things should be, or otherwise defend the wisdom of such laws and regulations ? No. But it is what it is , and we have to deal with the current laws.

Person A was a cop buying gun at "Blue Label" price to transfer to his father or other family member can't remember and was arrested for a straw purchase

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TheAmericanPlumber · Mar 5, 2017

rseymorejr said:
When your friend filled out the 4473 he swore that he was the actual purchaser. If he bought with the intention of reselling to you, he broke the law. It's really as simple as that.

Then stated by the other poster where purchasing the firearm with the intent to flip it is actually a straw purchase but many state that that would be legal to do. There is no difference but one is legal and the other is a straw purchase

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TheAmericanPlumber · Mar 5, 2017

kraftyone said:
Person A was a cop buying gun at "Blue Label" price to transfer to his father or other family member can't remember and was arrested for a straw purchase

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gmharle said:
In the Abramski v. US case cited earlier the issue was that the uncle sent a check to cover the purchase to the police officer prior to the transaction making it a straw purchase under the current law.

Like he said the issue with this case was the cop received payment before he purchased the gun

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kraftyone · Mar 5, 2017

gmharle said:
According to ATF Publication 5300.4 this would only be a straw purchase if the OP gave his friend the money to make the purchase on his behalf. It says nothing about purchasing a firearm with the intent to sell it to someone else either known or unknown at the time of filling out the 4473.

That is where the cop mentioned in the earlier case messed up his father sent him a check with for glock I believe in the notes before the officer ever even bought the gun

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TheAmericanPlumber · Mar 5, 2017

kraftyone said:
That is where the cop mentioned in the earlier case messed up his father sent him a check with for glock I believe in the notes before the officer ever even bought the gun

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Exactly and judging by that IF my friend purchased the gun for himself and then flipped it for profit to me and I paid him the day of the MD FFL transfer than that should be completely fine. Because based on other people's statements in this thread.
1. He purchased it and decided to flip it and make some cash
2. He was paid for the gun on the date of transfer through registered MD FFL
3. Both parties filled out all required forms and paperwork correctly and have all state required licenses needed for purchase of a firearm

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MD Resident buying a handgun from out of state resident (Private Sale)

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