Peacemaker getting sued, released member info

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  • Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    Employees of PNTC have basically been issued a gag order. Anything that's public knowledge we may discuss, but we will not at any time, incriminate PNTC. We must preserve PNTC for our long term mission & goals. It is not our intent to "ignore" anyone, but to protect yours and our rights as citizens and the 2nd ammendment. We are business as usual, and there are no scheduling impacts in regards to this case. Mother nature though has smacked us around this week, but we prevail. Other information regarding this case can be obtained by contacting the WVCDL.

    Thanks again everone for your support. We are always stronger together.

    It will be difficult for me to contribute if I don't know what the issue is.
     

    bcr229

    FFL/SOT
    Jul 15, 2011
    1,330
    Inwood, WV
    Short answer: range opened in WV in 2011. Owners of adjacent property in VA filed suit for noise/nuisance in Berkeley County, WV in 2015. The lawsuit proceeded at a (more or less) normal snails pace and it is now in the discovery phase. Under Berkeley County's noise ordinances and/or state law the range should be protected from these types of lawsuits but the judge has ignored that.

    As part of the discovery the plaintiffs requested the following:
    - List of current and former members
    - A&D book
    - Copies of all 4473's
    - Copies of ATF forms, including F4's to transferees.

    Peacemaker obviously fought the request, lost, docs were turned over yesterday.
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    Short answer: range opened in WV in 2011. Owners of adjacent property in VA filed suit for noise/nuisance in Berkeley County, WV in 2015. The lawsuit proceeded at a (more or less) normal snails pace and it is now in the discovery phase. Under Berkeley County's noise ordinances and/or state law the range should be protected from these types of lawsuits but the judge has ignored that.

    As part of the discovery the plaintiffs requested the following:
    - List of current and former members
    - A&D book
    - Copies of all 4473's
    - Copies of ATF forms, including F4's to transferees.

    Peacemaker obviously fought the request, lost, docs were turned over yesterday.

    Why all the secret squirrel?
     

    TheGunnyRet

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 27, 2014
    2,234
    Falling Waters, WV
    Though I think this is a Anti-Gun ploy or nudge from unknown instigators (maybe).

    What does all of that Private Information HAVE tot do with Noise from the Barrel of a Weapon.

    Again to me seems to be the Judge is being Political. taking crib notes from the 9th Crkt Crt...

    I would look at the States Constitution and Oath of the Judge and look at Mis-Conduct Filing to send a message. JMO
     

    bcr229

    FFL/SOT
    Jul 15, 2011
    1,330
    Inwood, WV
    Why all the secret squirrel?
    I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

    When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.
     

    hup234

    Member
    Feb 15, 2017
    55
    I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

    When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.

    $300 per hour ... and this will probably drag out for years.
     

    marc357

    Active Member
    Jan 27, 2008
    232
    Woodbine, MD
    I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

    When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.

    Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

    Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,243
    Mid-Merlind
    Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

    Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.
    Agreed.

    As soon as the security of my personal information was threatened, I was due notice. Notice that was withheld to the detriment of my own welfare and privacy. To keep this from me, and the rest of us, effectively circumvented any legal remedy any of us may have had. How are we to be compensated for this loss and breach?

    Another aspect of keeping this crap secret until after it was over was that any chance Peacemaker had of getting qualified legal help and support from the membership was eliminated. Can anyone guess how much it may have mattered if we had packed the courtroom? How much it may have mattered to have any number of additional attorney members helping with this. No telling now...

    Private tax records (Form 4s) compromised. Federal forms (4473s) surrendered to non-federal personnel. Names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses and social security numbers now a matter of public record. Who safeguards this now?

    Trying to fight this alone and secretly without membership and guest notification and involvement has now cost us, the national shooting community, a HUGE price in setting this precedent.

    Isn't there now a case in Georgia that follows this path?

    The fact that a very valuable local resource is now in grave jeopardy, quite possibly due to the way this was initially handled, is certainly a shame, but quite secondary to other concerns.

    And NOW, as the damage is done, the dust settles and our personal information compromised, they want money? Seems legit...
     

    ten75ice

    Career Fire Fighter
    Mar 12, 2011
    272
    Falling Waters, WV
    Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

    Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.


    The discovery order was just handed down, we were just as surprised as everyone else.
     

    marc357

    Active Member
    Jan 27, 2008
    232
    Woodbine, MD
    The discovery order was just handed down, we were just as surprised as everyone else.

    That's not the way it read to me, allow me to quote PNTC's statement:

    "Despite numerous motions and requests to reconsider, and numerous mediation efforts with the plaintiff, the court has ordered PNTC to produce the below documents and other private records under a "Protective Order." "

    Clearly this has been going on for longer than last Friday.

    Either way, someone could/ should have grown a sack and removed the docs from the property and secure them somewhere else while it is appealed, rather than fold like a cheap suit.

    Lots of talk about "The 2nd Amendment guarantees us the tools we need to fight government tyranny"....... Well, this IS what tyranny looks like.... So if you don't even have the stones to stand up to an activist Local judge who is in clear violation of the law.... what will you do when there's *real* trouble?

    Might as well sell your guns and take up golf. Just kneel at the edge of the ditch and wait for it. :sad20:
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    The nature of the ruling may have been a surprise, but not that the question was in serious play.
     

    ten75ice

    Career Fire Fighter
    Mar 12, 2011
    272
    Falling Waters, WV
    That's not the way it read to me, allow me to quote PNTC's statement:

    "Despite numerous motions and requests to reconsider, and numerous mediation efforts with the plaintiff, the court has ordered PNTC to produce the below documents and other private records under a "Protective Order." "

    Clearly this has been going on for longer than last Friday.

    Either way, someone could/ should have grown a sack and removed the docs from the property and secure them somewhere else while it is appealed, rather than fold like a cheap suit.

    Lots of talk about "The 2nd Amendment guarantees us the tools we need to fight government tyranny"....... Well, this IS what tyranny looks like.... So if you don't even have the stones to stand up to an activist Local judge who is in clear violation of the law.... what will you do when there's *real* trouble?

    Might as well sell your guns and take up golf. Just kneel at the edge of the ditch and wait for it. :sad20:

    I guess you have all the answers then man, don't know what else to tell you.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

    When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.

    Lawyers only give legal advice and it should be understood that there may be other factors that need to be taken into account. In this case, Peacemakers customers may not go back because they released their records. That is a negative affect that the lawyers don't factor because it is a business decision and not a legal one.

    Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

    Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.

    They are business records that happen to have personal information in them. That information was given by the customer and is now the property of Peacemaker. None of the customers are currently a party to the suit so they don't really have a right to address the court on this issue. The records are under a protective order so the information is not part of the public record of the case and the lawyers can get in trouble if they release the information.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,532
    $300 /hr ? They better have hired a gun more valuable than that..

    Either way, someone could/ should have grown a sack and removed the docs from the property and secure them somewhere else while it is appealed, rather than fold like a cheap suit.

    Wonderful, spoliation and contempt. You might as well tell them to shut down now.
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    Employees of PNTC have basically been issued a gag order.

    So, there really wasn't a court ordered gag order?

    I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

    When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.

    As a matter of fact I have. And, $300.00 is an entry level lawyer. If that's all you're paying, maybe they aren't getting good advice. Did anyone contact the NRA for assistance?

    I want to know who this guy is?
    What does he do for a living?
    Same question for wife?
    Where does he go to church?
    What is his party affiliation?
    Is he active in politics?
    What are his extra curricular activities?
    Are there other nose problems in the neighborhood?
    Where are the .pdfs of the filings?
    What are those noise levels?
    What kind of house does he live in?
    is there a buffer?
    Are his neighbors complaining?
    Is there an airport near by?
    What is his connection to the attorney?
    Did anyone object to him being allowed to practice out of state?

    There's dirt here. Private investigators are $50.00 per hour where I live. There is something here. Someone go find it.

    I guess you have all the answers then man, don't know what else to tell you.

    You apparently do not "have all the answers" and have not, in my opinion, handled this well.
     

    ironpony

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    7,190
    Davidsonville
    wow, a judge can order a company to turn over Federal/State documents to a civilian/their attorney? At that point I would go cheap lawyer too ... the fix is in.
    I could be wrong.
     

    Don H

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 17, 2013
    1,845
    Hazzard County
    So, there really wasn't a court ordered gag order?



    As a matter of fact I have. And, $300.00 is an entry level lawyer. If that's all you're paying, maybe they aren't getting good advice. Did anyone contact the NRA for assistance?

    I want to know who this guy is?
    What does he do for a living?
    Same question for wife?
    Where does he go to church?
    What is his party affiliation?
    Is he active in politics?
    What are his extra curricular activities?
    Are there other nose problems in the neighborhood?
    Where are the .pdfs of the filings?
    What are those noise levels?
    What kind of house does he live in?
    is there a buffer?
    Are his neighbors complaining?
    Is there an airport near by?
    What is his connection to the attorney?
    Did anyone object to him being allowed to practice out of state?

    There's dirt here. Private investigators are $50.00 per hour where I live. There is something here. Someone go find it.



    You apparently do not "have all the answers" and have not, in my opinion, handled this well.

    Here's a start http://www.whitepages.com/name/Bennett-H-Goldstein/Winchester-VA/hqx31pe
     

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