Harford Co.fence/boundary question

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  • Stein79

    Surf&Turf
    Feb 3, 2011
    645
    Murderland
    Sorry if this should have gone in the Water Cooler section.
    TL/DR version: a fencing/boundary dispute with the neighbor and wondering if i'm in the wrong and/or looking for input:

    I moved to Harford Co. in May and was provided a plot drawing of my property. We have a dog and wanted to install a split rail fence around the property boundary to keep him in and other dogs out.

    I spoke to a few surveyors and was given prices between $1,000-2,200 to complete the survey due to poor records held by the county. One surveyor suggested I simply speak to our neighbors to get an "OK" on where we wanted to put the fence. As the fence was already quite expensive, that sounded smart to me...

    So, we went that route to save time but mostly money. Now the fence is up and one neighbor is disputing that we are encroaching on his property. This specific neighbor I spoke with the day or so before the fence was to be installed and with his approval, marked several places with a spray paint can. But, now i'm encroaching.
    He doesn't have a survey on his property nor know the exact boundaries either, but he says it is my responsibility to have the survey done. I would tend to agree with him, except that I would have done that to begin with had I known he was going to change his mind on the location. Stupid me for not getting it in writing.
    On the other hand, my title company told me that if he is disputing it, the onus is on him to provide proof. His response to that is, if he pays for a survey and it shows the fence is on his property - then I have to pay for that.

    I am not a lawyer, and I do want this to be resolved. I don't see myself spending much time with this neighbor but I also don't want an enemy 150 yards away. Now I really regret not buying more land...

    I've spend a lot of time online looking for laws related to this and have found some contradicting or at the very least, unclear information as to fencing/setbacks, etc.

    From Harford Co. ZONING CODE, chapter 267
    Amended 8/14/2017 (only relevant parts copied)

    267-27. Accessory Uses and Structures. [Amended by Bill 09-19, as amended; Bill 12-44; Bill 13-
    51; and Bill 14-1]

    C. Use limitations. In addition to the other requirements of this Part 1, an accessory use or
    structure shall not be permitted unless it strictly complies with the following:

    (6) Uses and structures.

    (b) For residential lots, accessory structures will be considered attached if they are
    within 3 feet of the principal structure and must meet the principal structure
    Harford County Zoning Code Part 1. Standards Article V. Supplementary Regulations (The fence is within 3’ of the house)

    Harford County Zoning Code 70
    setback requirements. For residential lots, detached accessory structures shall
    be located:
    [1] A minimum of 3 feet from side or rear yard lot lines, unless the lot has a
    recorded drainage and utility easement or any other recorded
    Easement. (Mine does)
    [2] For lots with recorded drainage and utility easements, the owner must
    obtain a building permit or zoning certificate to locate any detached
    accessory structure within the recorded drainage and utility easement
    pursuant to §267-27C(8); otherwise, the setback shall be equal to the
    width of the recorded drainage and utility easement or 3 feet,
    whichever is greater.
    [3] For lots with any other recorded easement, accessory structures shall
    not be permitted within the easement and the setback shall be equal
    to the width of the recorded easement or 3 feet, whichever is greater.

    (8) Fences shall be permitted in any recorded drainage and utility easement. The placement of all other accessory uses shall be allowed in any recorded drainage and utility easement, pursuant to the following:
    (a) The accessory use or structure shall meet the setback and square footage requirements contained in §267-27C
    (b) The Department of Public Works shall approve the location; (c) The accessory structure shall meet the applicable requirements of this section; and (d) The applicant shall sign a hold harmless form, provided by the County.

    So, is this saying that I can have the fence in the easement, but it has to be 3’ from the neighbor’s property line?
    He has said I can just move it inside my property line a few feet and not bother with a survey but who knows if he changes his mind a month later...

    Any input, legal advice, or recommendations on surveyors would be appreciated. I just want this resolved so the dog doesn’t have to be on the chain and I don’t have to worry about problems with a neighbor close by.

    Thank you
     

    rseymorejr

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2011
    26,015
    Harford County
    When I put my fence in I had it so that the outer face of the fencing boards were just inside my property line. No survey, no permit and so far no neighbor problems.

    If you located the fence posts and you neighbor OK'd them and later changed their mind, your neighbor is an *******. Whatever you do from this point out that he neighbor agrees on, get it in writing. I'd be tempted to tell him to get that survey and if the fence is on his property you'll move it, he can eat the cost of he survey.
     

    sgt23preston

    USMC LLA. NRA Life Member
    May 19, 2011
    3,995
    Perry Hall
    Here are your "real" choices:

    #1. Call your contractor & get a price to have the fence relocated & then just get it done = cheapest way & best for neighbor relations...

    #2. Stop talking to your neighbor altogether & let him pay for the Survey & then the Court Costs to force you move your fence.
    IF the fence is on his property, this will be expensive.
    IF the fence is on your property, you can call him an *******...
     

    Vetted84

    Active Member
    Nov 8, 2016
    646
    When I had my fence built I intentionally had it put up 2 feet inside the property line to avoid such issues.

    I agree with the Sgt, easiest solution is probably to just go ahead and move the fence.

    You may end up incurring that expense anyway if a survey shows you crossed the line.
     

    Don H

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 17, 2013
    1,845
    Hazzard County
    Call Licensing and Inspection, someone there will answer your question. If I recall they have a document explaining the fencing codes.
     

    newmuzzleloader

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 14, 2009
    4,765
    joppa
    From the code you posted it looks like bldgs aka structures have a 3ft setback not fences. Did you pull a permit and was it ok'd by the county? If so F that neighbor. You should have a plat/ drawing of your house location on the lot in relation to the property lines and where the property corner pins are. Unless your property is oddly shaped it should be a simple matter to rung a string line from corner post to corner post and find out if your inside the line
     

    K31

    "Part of that Ultra MAGA Crowd"
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 15, 2006
    35,632
    AA county
    Write the guy a letter and remind him of your approaching him with your request for his approval and spraying the marks on the ground the day before. Take pictures of the marks if they are still there. Document it in any other ways you can think of.
     

    28Shooter

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 19, 2010
    8,206
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Putting up a fence, especially an "expensive" fence, get a boundary line survey by a licensed surveyor first. I know that's probably not what you want to hear but the boundary line will get your corners "pinned" and then the onus is on the neighbors to dispute your survey.
     

    Doitsouthstyle

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2012
    981
    Baltimore County
    Ask him if he wants to split the cost for survey and possible relocation. And mention that this line was agreed upon between the two of you. This I am guessing would probably change the beat of his attitude and kind of make it look like you are at least trying to resolve "problem".
     

    BigCountry14

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 17, 2013
    1,669
    Fyi, a fence requires a zoning certificate. That is handled by planning and zoning. Generally they will ask for a plat with a drawing of where you intend to place it. There is a plat on file somewhere, either with the state at the courthouse or a final plat approved by the county. Check the website for the gis maps and pull up your property

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Having dealt with HOA issues and Harford County, I've got to say you really put yourself into a bad situation. Your fence needed a building permit by the county. If your neighbor calls them and says you installed a fence without a permit, you're between a rock and a hard place. As far as your plat, I will say that if you just bought this house you should have had a survey done in order to get your title/deed. Your title company should have a copy of your plat. Harford County will have a copy of it with your deed. If your lot does not have markers, you will still need a surveyor to set your property corners/lines.

    I'm not meaning to pick on ya, but you went the cheap route and many times that's the most expensive way to go.
     

    Stein79

    Surf&Turf
    Feb 3, 2011
    645
    Murderland
    Thank you all for the advice. I've tried reasoning with the guy but it is like talking to a wall.

    Going to have a survey done so that legally I've done what is required. Just looking to move past it at this point and enjoy the yard.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     

    Don H

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 17, 2013
    1,845
    Hazzard County
    Also be aware that HA Co knows when you built that fence without a permit using updates satellite imagery. I tried to get a permit to build a set of stairs off an existing townhouse deck. Sat right there with the Building Permit guy and looked at the townhouse satellite pictures, year by year, until no deck was visible. Then they looked up permits for that address and found no deck permit. The county wouldn't issue the stair permit because it was going on an un-permitted deck.
     

    BigCountry14

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 17, 2013
    1,669
    Also be aware that HA Co knows when you built that fence without a permit using updates satellite imagery. I tried to get a permit to build a set of stairs off an existing townhouse deck. Sat right there with the Building Permit guy and looked at the townhouse satellite pictures, year by year, until no deck was visible. Then they looked up permits for that address and found no deck permit. The county wouldn't issue the stair permit because it was going on an un-permitted deck.
    Its a little behind in Harford, but yes, most counties keep satellite imagery and check it when you pull new permits. Zoning is pretty particular about making sure you have the correct zoning certs and building permits.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,343
    I just opened up about 2,000 more square feet of flat space on the second driveway with my tractor recently.

    I hope they don't come looking for my grading permit to attach to the rain tax permit.
    415040d1232061117-jack-off-emoticon-jackoff.gif
     

    rseymorejr

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2011
    26,015
    Harford County
    Also be aware that HA Co knows when you built that fence without a permit using updates satellite imagery. I tried to get a permit to build a set of stairs off an existing townhouse deck. Sat right there with the Building Permit guy and looked at the townhouse satellite pictures, year by year, until no deck was visible. Then they looked up permits for that address and found no deck permit. The county wouldn't issue the stair permit because it was going on an un-permitted deck.

    That's why I didn't get a permit for my stairs!
    :innocent0
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Having dealt with HOA issues and Harford County, I've got to say you really put yourself into a bad situation. Your fence needed a building permit by the county. If your neighbor calls them and says you installed a fence without a permit, you're between a rock and a hard place. As far as your plat, I will say that if you just bought this house you should have had a survey done in order to get your title/deed. Your title company should have a copy of your plat. Harford County will have a copy of it with your deed. If your lot does not have markers, you will still need a surveyor to set your property corners/lines.

    I'm not meaning to pick on ya, but you went the cheap route and many times that's the most expensive way to go.

    I was trying to figure out how he bought the house without a survey.

    When we bought ours, there was a survey, and for many years the property survey stakes were in place, except one my neighbor pulled up to avoid mowing over it. :)

    Square lot, so only 4 markers needed.

    Also, who put in the fence? If the OP, then he should of pulled the permit. If he had someone do it, THEY needed to pull the permit AND make sure they were within code.
     

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