HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

Hawkeye · Jun 4, 2018

pcfixer said:
NOT. This is one I don't want to argue. I'm getting a retainer on a lawyer first and not after to fact. Soooo, when a law officer arrives with ERPO I'll have a means to resist up front and not after the fact.

I'm not saying this to be combative, but the way that the law is written, you can't "resist" up front. If you do, you will go to jail. That's part of the issue with the law. When they turn up with the Interim Order, you either surrender all of your firearms and ammunition or you go to jail.

willtill said:
So for the sake of discussion; if you retained a lawyer beforehand... how will that all go down if a EPRO is served?

It will help insofar as you'll have someone that you can call in order to get things rolling when it's time for the hearing about whether or not the Interim Order should become a Temporary Order, which is usually going to be within 3 days.

Calling a lawyer when they show up at your house to serve the order isn't going to do you any good as far as not having to surrender your firearms and ammunition though, because the cops are going to be carrying a legal Interim Order that gives them the duty to seize them.

BeoBill · Jun 4, 2018

Hawkeye said:
...Calling a lawyer when they show up at your house to serve the order isn't going to do you any good as far as not having to surrender your firearms and ammunition though, because the cops are going to be carrying a legal Interim Order that gives them the duty to seize them.

Having your lawyer call the media might be a better course of action. Especially if it's "The crazy cat lady next door" that swore out the complaint...

ironpony · Jun 4, 2018

BeoBill said:
Having your lawyer call the media might be a better course of action. Especially if it's "The crazy cat lady next door" that swore out the complaint...

Moral of the story - Don't date the crazy cat lady next door.

Hawkeye · Jun 4, 2018

BeoBill said:
Having your lawyer call the media might be a better course of action. Especially if it's "The crazy cat lady next door" that swore out the complaint...

Totally.

The cops are still going to be leaving your house with all of your guns and ammo, though.

somd_mustangs · Jun 4, 2018

ironpony said:
Moral of the story - Don't date the crazy cat lady next door.

or be diplomatic about spurning her advances

IDFInfantry · Jun 4, 2018

Seriously scary stuff. I just can't believe it has gotten to this point. Basically everywhere you go make sure you are wearing a body cam. Don't talk to unhinged liberals at all. Keep as far away from them as possible. :sad20:

CrueChief · Jun 4, 2018

Or find that undisclosed storage location for most of you goodies.

Hawkeye · Jun 4, 2018

CrueChief said:
Or find that undisclosed storage location for most of you goodies.

Which is fine, if you don't mind breaking the law.

That's a choice each can make for their own, but just sayin'.

44man · Jun 4, 2018

Hawkeye said:
Which is fine, if you don't mind breaking the law.

That's a choice each can make for their own, but just sayin'.

If your property is at another location out of state how is that breaking this law?

Hawkeye · Jun 4, 2018

44man said:
If your property is at another location out of state how is that breaking this law?

I honestly don't know how they'd deal with out of state stuff. I wouldn't imagine they could say boo about it, but unless you also then move out of state, it won't do you any good because possession of a firearm or ammunition while you're a respondent to one of these orders is illegal (definitely while in MD).

CrueChief · Jun 4, 2018

Hawkeye said:
Which is fine, if you don't mind breaking the law.

That's a choice each can make for their own, but just sayin'.

You would only be breaking the law if at some point you are in possession of said bad things. If they aren't in your possession then what can they do arrest you for not possessing the things they came to take from your possession........... They may since the actual COTUS doesn't mean anything to our rulers but if they never have them getting your things back won't be an issue......

After all we have the right to remain silent. Yeah the house will be trashed extra probably but not possessing is not possessing.

Hawkeye · Jun 4, 2018

CrueChief said:
You would only be breaking the law if at some point you are in possession of said bad things.

Well, IANAL and all that, but the legal definition of "possession" varies a lot depending on context, and it does NOT always mean the kind of possession where you have immediate physical access to the thing (which I believe is commonly referred to as "actual possession" of the item).

There is also "constructive possession," which applies when you own the thing but might not have immediate physical access to it - like say, papers in a safe deposit box. You still "possess" those papers, even though you can't physically get to them.

Once upon a time, if you wanted to prove "criminal possession" of an object, that object needed to be in the person's "actual possession." In the 1920s during prohibition that started to change though, when they would need to prove that a certain gangster "possessed" a bunch of barrels of whiskey or whatever, even if he wasn't physically capable of holding them or accessing them at a given moment.

Somebody who knows more about this than me should probably comment on it further, but I would be willing to bet that Frosh and his cronies would go after someone for constructive possession of a firearm while they were a respondent to one of these Orders. What that would mean for an item stored outside of Maryland's jurisdiction I wouldn't pretend to know.

Art3 · Jun 4, 2018

How could you turn them in from PA, or VA, or MT? You're already under ERPO...so there's no firearm touchy for you :nono:

at least, not until it's lifted. Is the Sheriff going to break down a door in PA...MT? :shrug:

ironpony · Jun 4, 2018

Hmmm, 1302 someone and the only thing left in the safe is a key to a safe deposit box and “only” the possessor of the key may have access to/possession of contents.

Glad all my girlfriends are decent folk types.

CrueChief · Jun 4, 2018

Hawkeye said:
Well, IANAL and all that, but the legal definition of "possession" varies a lot depending on context, and it does NOT always mean the kind of possession where you have immediate physical access to the thing (which I believe is commonly referred to as "actual possession" of the item).

There is also "constructive possession," which applies when you own the thing but might not have immediate physical access to it - like say, papers in a safe deposit box. You still "possess" those papers, even though you can't physically get to them.

Once upon a time, if you wanted to prove "criminal possession" of an object, that object needed to be in the person's "actual possession." In the 1920s during prohibition that started to change though, when they would need to prove that a certain gangster "possessed" a bunch of barrels of whiskey or whatever, even if he wasn't physically capable of holding them or accessing them at a given moment.

Somebody who knows more about this than me should probably comment on it further, but I would be willing to bet that Frosh and his cronies would go after someone for constructive possession of a firearm while they were a respondent to one of these Orders. What that would mean for an item stored outside of Maryland's jurisdiction I wouldn't pretend to know.

Again I have the right to remain silent.

And how are they going to know with a certainty exactly what I have when they come.

5cary · Jun 4, 2018

CrueChief said:
Again I have the right to remain silent.

And how are they going to know with a certainty exactly what I have when they come.

You also apparently have the right to bear arms... And yet here we are.

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smkranz · Jun 5, 2018

If you own the firearms (which they know because you either purchased them here, registered them if you brought them in from out of state, and didn't transfer them, or report them stolen), and remove them to an off-site or out-of-state location, you still constructively possess them. If served with an ERPO, and you say you ain't got the guns which they know you own, you be going to jail. Conviction on that is up to a year. They'll get a warrant to search your home, and then any other locations they find out about searching. If you're hiding guns from them, they'll know it and look all the more vigorously for them.

Thinking about this argument from the point of view of proponents of this law, hiding firearms to prevent their seizure is just the kind of thing that will justify this law's passage. After all, if you've been a good boy and are simply the unfortunate victim of some nut-job filing a frivolous ERPO Complaint against you, that will come out in the wash and you'll get your firearms back, soon, safe and sound. But if you are belligerent and paranoid about it, you must have had evil intent to begin with so...NO GUNS FOR YOU!

swinokur · Jun 5, 2018

HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

If you brought the guns into the state prior to 10-1–13 MSP has no knowledge of them.

Registration was voluntary

ironpony · Jun 5, 2018

Haha, I remember a Yeager video where he said if you don’t give the .gov the guns they know you have they will cut parts off your body until you give them up.

Not my words and just some comic relief, please do not take this post seriously. However they do seem to want them pretty bad ...

Who will flip the bill to fly out to ones hunting cabin or vacation home in Alaska to, well you can’t touch them so you’ll need to fly the MSP with you. This is an expensive bill Hogan signed.

Hawkeye · Jun 5, 2018

smkranz said:
If served with an ERPO, and you say you ain't got the guns which they know you own, you be going to jail.

I'm not entirely sure you're correct on that one.

For one: there is no way to "deregister" a regulated firearm from an owner in the MD system, ever. Once it's registered to you, it is registered to you FOREVER. Now, if you sell them to someone in MD, they would *theoretically* be able to see that they were registered to someone else after you, assuming the database isn't as messed up as gun databases usually are (look at the NFARTR for an example). However, if you sell it to someone else out of MD, the MD system will have it registered to you FOREVER. I have sold several regulated firearms to people in other states, and shipped them directly to an FFL in that state. As far as Maryland is concerned, those guns are still registered to me. If MSP ever showed up at my house to seize my guns, all I could say would be "sorry, I sold that years ago to someone in Florida."

HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

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