md purchase and C&R

Allium · Feb 9, 2008

If I as a Md resident buy a C&R handgun from a maryland seller do I still need to go through the whole 7 day wait and paperwork?

coinboy · Feb 9, 2008

Allium said:
If I as a Md resident buy a C&R handgun from a maryland seller do I still need to go through the whole 7 day wait and paperwork?

Yes. 30 day rule also applies unless you are a MD State "designated collector."

Also the handgun must be on the hangun roster if it is 1985 or after (I think the date is right).

novus collectus · Feb 9, 2008

Allium said:
If I as a Md resident buy a C&R handgun from a maryland seller do I still need to go through the whole 7 day wait and paperwork?

What Coinboy said, however there may be one exception to this. If you are outside the state and the sale was legal in that state, then you can purchase the C&R firearm without dealing with the state of MD if my guess is correct. The ATF FAQ on their webpage does not say whether or not the purchase can be made from another MD resident while in that state.

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

§ 178.50 Locations covered by license. The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;

(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm

BUt before you try this, ask the Baltimore ATF field office if it is legal to purchase a C&R handgun from another Maryland resident if both of you are in a state other than MD. This is something I would be wary of trying without a letter from the ATF.

Allium · Feb 9, 2008

Funny I could take home a C&R from Dulles show or i can buy on the net and it will show up in tomorrows mail but a C&R bought at the gunshow up the road takes over a week to get to me.

And yes the md collectors paper is a sweet thing.

coinboy · Feb 10, 2008

Allium said:
Funny I could take home a C&R from Dulles show or i can buy on the net and it will show up in tomorrows mail but a C&R bought at the gunshow up the road takes over a week to get to me.

And yes the md collectors paper is a sweet thing.

It just goes to show you how stupid the gun restrictions on us are. Doesn't it?

kalister1 · May 21, 2008

I have a C&R FFL, Can I buy a C&R Pistol (CZ_83?) and a new in the box (RUGER?) within 30 days? I guess my question is does the C&R purchase count as 1 restricted gun for this month?

novus collectus · May 21, 2008

kalister1 said:
I have a C&R FFL, Can I buy a C&R Pistol (CZ_83?) and a new in the box (RUGER?) within 30 days? I guess my question is does the C&R purchase count as 1 restricted gun for this month?

CZ83 is not C&R. The CZ82 is.

From what I understand, if you bought the CZ82 with your C&R from an out of state source and "imported" it into MD, then it does not count towards the one in thrity days law. If you bought it in MD it would even if you used your C&R FFL.

I am not a lawyer.

j8064 · May 21, 2008

novus collectus said:
CZ83 is not C&R. The CZ82 is.

From what I understand, if you bought the CZ82 with your C&R from an out of state source and "imported" it into MD, then it does not count towards the one in thrity days law. If you bought it in MD it would even if you used your C&R FFL.

I am not a lawyer.

Makes sense that scenario is correct. But if kalister1 obtains his MD Designated Collector approval, then the one in 30 day issue becomes moot.

(And I'm not a lawyer either.)

kalister1 · May 21, 2008

OK, Thanks for the response. Sorry about the CZ82/83, I have one from AIM but am not sure of the number off the top of my head.(Until NOW)

The way I understand it, I CANNOT use my 03 FFL inside of Maryland, only interstate.

Half-cocked · May 21, 2008

kalister1 said:
The way I understand it, I CANNOT use my 03 FFL inside of Maryland, only interstate.

True for hand guns. However, your FFL03 is perfectly usable in-state, for long guns that are C&R's. In other words, to buy a C&R long gun from a Maryland dealer, and you just have to show him your FFL, and no NICS check would be required.

postmako · May 21, 2008

novus collectus said:
The ATF FAQ on their webpage does not say whether or not the purchase can be made from another MD resident while in that state.

§ 178.50 Locations covered by license. The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;

(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm

BUt before you try this, ask the Baltimore ATF field office if it is legal to purchase a C&R handgun from another Maryland resident if both of you are in a state other than MD. This is something I would be wary of trying without a letter from the ATF.

As you can see above in § 178.50b that I highlighted, it does say that it has to be done in the same state. So the part that says resident of the state where the disposition is made. So no, you cannot do it that way. Plus, I doubt a jury would rule in your favor even though they should because all of these laws infringe on the 2nd amendment.

novus collectus · May 21, 2008

kalister1 said:
OK, Thanks for the response. Sorry about the CZ82/83, I have one from AIM but am not sure of the number off the top of my head.(Until NOW)

The way I understand it, I CANNOT use my 03 FFL inside of Maryland, only interstate.

As half-pricked stated ( :lol2:

), for non-regulated long arms your C&R will make it a non-Brady law purchase. In other words no background check since it is a transaction between two FFLs.
However he is partly wrong about C&R handguns in MD. Even though you have to do the seven day wait with background check and you have to deal with the one in 30 days regulated firearm restriction (unless a MD "designated collector"), you have to give the FFL your signed copy of your FFL as I understand it. (only for C&R handguns)

In other words, even though you have to go through all the MD ******** to buy a handgun in MD, if it is a C&R handgun you still have to record it in your bound book and give the FFL your FFL (a private handgun transaction through the MDSP barracks to a non-FFL you have to record their ID, but you are not required to give them a signed copy of your FFL as I understand it).

Half-cocked · May 21, 2008

novus collectus said:
As half-pricked stated (

novus collectus · May 21, 2008

postmako said:
As you can see above in § 178.50b that I highlighted, it does say that it has to be done in the same state. So the part that says resident of the state where the disposition is made. So no, you cannot do it that way. Plus, I doubt a jury would rule in your favor even though they should because all of these laws infringe on the 2nd amendment.

Read it again. A licensee of any type can acquire a handgun at any location in any state....period.
A C&R licensee can disposses C&R to another FFL in any state....period.

§ 178.50 Locations covered by license. The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:

(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;

(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made.

(c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of § 178.100; or

(d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provision of § 178.100.

Now (d) says "engage in the business" of, and that is entirely different than simple transfers between C&R FFLs because C&R FFLs cannot "engage in the business of dealing" as per the definition for that term. However,
" but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the enhancement
of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;"
So in other words, if they are at a gun show in another state, only people "engaged in the business of" dealing, importing or manufacturing firearms can sell to another FFL for profit they make a living off of, but C&R FFLs do not "engage in the business of".

(5) for any person (other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed
collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give,
transport, or deliver any firearm to any
person (other than a licensed importer,
licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer,
or licensed collector) who the transferor
knows or has reasonable cause to believe
does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity,
does not maintain a place of business
in) the State in which the
transferor resides; except that this
paragraph shall not apply to (A) the
transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of
a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate
succession of a firearm by, a person
who is permitted to acquire or
possess a firearm under the laws of the
State of his residence, and (B) the loan
or rental of a firearm to any person for
temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/18usc_chap44.pdf

(9) for any person, other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed
collector, who does not reside in any
State to receive any firearms unless
such receipt is for lawful sporting purposes.....

(3) any firearm to any person who the
licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe does not reside in (or if
the person is a corporation or other
business entity, does not maintain a
place of business in) the State in which
the licensee's place of business is located,
except that this paragraph (A)
shall not apply to the sale or delivery of
any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a
State other than a State in which the licensee's
place of business is located if
the transferee meets in person with the
transferor to accomplish the transfer,
and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully
comply with the legal conditions of sale
in both such States (and any licensed
manufacturer, importer or dealer shall
be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph,
in the absence of evidence
to the contrary, to have had actual
knowledge of the State laws and published
ordinances of both States), and
(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental
of a firearm to any person for temporary
use for lawful sporting purposes;....

Paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4) of this
subsection shall not apply to transactions
between licensed importers, licensed
manufacturers, licensed dealers, and
licensed collectors. Paragraph (4) of this
subsection shall not apply to a sale or
delivery to any research organization designated
by the Attorney General.

Same link

I am not a lawyer

md purchase and C&R

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