USMC Switching to HK

Looks like the Marines really are the smartest after all. HK pistons for every man! Some say that piston driven is inferior. The United States Marine Corps says you are wrong. Maybe the Army will man up and admit they need to upgrade. HK all the way baby!

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/02/1...iar-to-every-rifleman-issues-rfi-to-industry/

Only 11K are getting them out of almost 200K active

General Chadwick strenuously disagrees

Combloc said:

Looks like the Marines really are the smartest after all. HK pistons for every man! Some say that piston driven is inferior. The United States Marine Corps says you are wrong. Maybe the Army will man up and admit they need to upgrade. HK all the way baby!

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/02/1...iar-to-every-rifleman-issues-rfi-to-industry/

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That's a fantastic solution. Now all they need is a problem to solve with it. But that can come later...

ISIS troglodytes will be a good test bed for their effectiveness and reliability.

Aloha Snackbar.

Get some.

mpdc4511 said:

Only 11K are getting them out of almost 200K active

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Did you read the article?

swinokur said:

General Chadwick strenuously disagrees

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I think we should start a thread on the best titles for Chad... My favorite so far:

1. Lord Chad
2. General Chadwick

I got an infraction for insulting others so I'll keep my thoughts to myself. LOL.

Everything involves a cost and a benefit.

I am in no way an even close to understanding the reliability and the cost factors that weigh on military decisions to select one system over another. I looked at one study (shame on me for using wikipedia) involving 60,000 rounds in a highly dusty environment:


I'm a very casual user of my AR-15s so it's pretty hard for me to imagine shooting 60,000 rounds through them, and I'd like to see when those failures started to add up (probably at the end of the 60K rounds). I know that the life of a barrel can be around 10K rounds (depending on use and they type of barrel).

So why wouldn't I just keep track of the number of rounds I put through a rifle and have it rebuilt or replaced after 10K-20K rounds for the AR, and let's just say 20K-40K for the HK? When I compare the cost of the civilian rifles I get this:


As a civilian, and probably as a part of an overall military strategy, I think it still makes sense to stick with the 'just as accurate' and just as reliable up to xx,xxx rounds AR, rather than paying extra for the HK.

I also see the fallacy in relying on only a 'dusty' environment as a basis for a reliability stress test. There are so many other factors and environments to consider. The military performed all of these tests and selected the M4.

Cost of the rifle aside, ammunition (for the life of the rifle $3K+) and many other costs are far greater and a significantly higher percentage of the cost of equipping a soldier. I don't doubt that the Marines are doing their homework so I can't second guess their decision.

For me, I'll take an AR-15.

This may well end up like the 1911's the Corp bought and then ditched rather quickly. Having a unique system on the battlefield isn't always a smart idea. Also, at some point I think Hk will have to give up the design and then they will be made by the lowest bidder.

I went to an armorer school with some Navy armorers who worked on HK416's in the field. They sure weren't real fond of them. Said they were very fussy.

Anyway it's just an RFI, which despite what article states, pretty much just means someone is considering buying more and gathering ballpark cost and availability data. To claim by issuing an RFI they are starting the process to issue every rifleman an HK is rather like claiming a 16 year old who just got his learner's permit at MVA has started the process to win the Indy 500. It's really kind of a stupid article in my opinion.

Most over rated firearm company ever in my opinion.

I carried the M-16,(to include the XM-177 and GAU-5) M-4 family of firearms from 1982-2012 and they work. Easy to work on, easy to use and a lot of parts to keep them up and running. If I was changing rifles I would start with the caliber first (go bigger) and then find the rifle to shoot them out of. The 5.56mm NATO round IMHO is the real problem. I would like to see the 7.62 X 51mm put back in service as the standard round. It kills bugs better!

This only means the U.S. Marines are taking the next step to adopt the gun, its not 100% adoption yet. I know the U.S. Marines will find out the hard way. I sincerely hope it does not lead to problems we saw when the Army sabotaged the M16 in Vietnam.

That said, the U.S. Marines may adopt the M27. I believe its a HUGE Mistake and someone is dropping the ball. I think HK "bought" this M27 planned adoption and didnt get here on its merits.

Here are the FACTS per info I know from Reports and from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE:
-The M27 will not reliably fire the M855A1 Enhanced Ammo that the U.S. Army developed
-The M27 wont accept certain Mags due to the design of the HK Magazine Well
(HK SHOULD Modify the Lower to change this if its adopted)
-The Marines plan to Suppress the ENTIRE Batallion. The M27 does NOT have an Adjustable Gas System. If they adopt the gun now with its current Gas Porting, it wont last long when suppressors are adopted.
My Experience: NON Adjustable Gas Piston Rifles need to be setup and GASSED for DEDICATED Suppressor Use. Gas Piston rifles do not have sufficient areas for Gas Expansion like D.I. AR's do. Fixed Gas D.I. handles a suppressor better, but also performs better with Adjustable Gas.
(HK Should add an Adjustable Gas Manifold to the M27 before its adopted if the USMC plans to Suppress the Corps)



Truth be told, the M4A1 can meet ALL of the criteria of the M27 for almost HALF the cost. AND its still fully compatible with USMC Training and Supply.
The M4A1 can be slightly tweaked my making the barrel Hammer Forged which will increase barrel life. Due to plans for suppressor use, I think the Marines would be better suited with an 18" Mid-Gas with a 2 position adjustable FIXED Front Sight Base. Its fool proof and rugged. 2 settings (Suppressed and Non Suppressed)

IMHO, the ENTIRE U.S. Armed Services need to trash all of their Magazines and buy new ones. Many of the problems from the M4 come from shit mags, improper lubricant, and "excessive maintenance".

The M4A1 uses a SSF Trigger, FF Rail and Heavy Barrel Profile. Its a well evolved machine that needs few improvements as currently utilized.

The M27 does no better then the M4A1 for parts breakage or reliability. The M27 does perform better than the M4 because the M4's lightweight barrel cannot handle sustained automatic fire like the M4A1 barrel can.

Here a range that fires guns as much as anyone else and commented on "reliability" HK Piston AR's
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/

– We no longer use ANY piston conversions or factory pistons guns with the exception of the HK-416 “knock-off” TDI upper. I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn’t last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000’s of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn’t keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don’t know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that’s all I got from it. I purchased two of the 14.5″ TDI knock-offs approximately 6-8 weeks ago and they have been on the line daily with ZERO issues. I only purchased them because people will come in specifically request the “416” and even they’ve never handled a weapon their entire lives, they KNOW that the top half isn’t the “416 like in COD/MW”.

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zoostation said:

I went to an armorer school with some Navy armorers who worked on HK416's in the field. They sure weren't real fond of them. Said they were very fussy.

Anyway it's just an RFI, which despite what article states, pretty much just means someone is considering buying more and gathering ballpark cost and availability data. To claim by issuing an RFI they are starting the process to issue every rifleman an HK is rather like claiming a 16 year old who just got his learner's permit at MVA has started the process to win the Indy 500. It's really kind of a stupid article in my opinion.

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Thanks for sharing that. Much appreciated.

qorban88 said:

I think we should start a thread on the best titles for Chad... My favorite so far:

1. Lord Chad
2. General Chadwick

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General would be improper since I didnt earn that rank.

Combloc said:

Did you read the article?

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Apparently not the title Hahahaha

I was thinking that but I didn't want to be a total bunghole, just a partial one.

The H&K416 is a great gun, but I am not sure it's really the best option for widespread deployment. I have not shot them a ton, but the ones I've shot seemed a bit on the chunky side, and the perceived recoil was a bit more than a gas gun. Not really an issue unless you're doing full auto mag dumps, I guess. The manual of arms is slightly different from an M4, though not at all difficult to follow. I personally would prefer to clean an M4 than a 416, but that's probably related to the fact that I have been cleaning M4s and standard AR15s for more than a decade. 416s are also really expensive for what is a minor, if statistically significant, reliability improvement. Overall I am not sure the cost benefit analysis makes a ton of sense, but I am glad to see our men and women in uniform getting good equipment issued to them.

Guys, try to read more carefully in the poorly written article and then do a search. The M27 is a replacement for the M249 SAW. It is NOT a replacement for the M4a1 the branches are rolling out nor for the M16a4.

It is a squad automatic rifle. It blends in with the regular issue rifles and carbines so it is harder to pick out the squad machine gunner. It is also much lighter and more accurate.

The downside is loss of suppressing fire, which is why the Army is not planning to adopt it. The Marines are not planning to phase out the M249 entirely. They are replacing about 50% of the squad level MGs with the M27. I'd think a compensation would be if the Marines moved towards issuing some drum magazines, but maybe the reliability isn't there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle