WWSD Rifle

1841DNG said:

I wonder if you could just bring a complete H-Bar upper to the store, slap it on to complete the rifle, and thus have it transferred as such? Not like you are missing out since it can't physically become a pistol anyway. But I am neither a lawyer nor an FFL.

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Don’t know the law on that. You’d be doing the work and it isn’t like you can’t touch a gun until it is transferred to you. However I’d wonder if that would make the FFL a gunsmith in the eyes of the ATF. It would be changing the category the firearm is being transferred under from other to rifle at the very least (which is what you’d want). An interesting question though. Maybe one I’ll ask once they become available and I got to buy one.

lazarus said:

Don’t know the law on that. You’d be doing the work and it isn’t like you can’t touch a gun until it is transferred to you. However I’d wonder if that would make the FFL a gunsmith in the eyes of the ATF. It would be changing the category the firearm is being transferred under from other to rifle at the very least (which is what you’d want). An interesting question though. Maybe one I’ll ask once they become available and I got to buy one.

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I have heard of some doing that and I am sure that a lot of ffls that do transfers are also gunsmith's or possibly manufacturers but I am just ignorant here.

Lowers available for pre-order. https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=Mk3+lower&ksubmit=y
I think they are a great value considering you don't need a stock,buffer tube, pistol grip, and trigger guard.
I pre-ordered the full ambi complete lower with KE Arms SLT-1 Trigger ($200) for $334 total shipped with a coupon code XAA

Rifle is also available for preorder. https://www.brownells.com/firearms/...at-would-stoner-do-2020-rifle-prod132663.aspx

vgplayer said:

Lowers available for pre-order. https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=Mk3+lower&ksubmit=y
I think they are a great value considering you don't need a stock or buffer tube.
I pre-ordered the full ambi complete lower for $334 with a coupon code XAA

Rifle is also available for preorder. https://www.brownells.com/firearms/...at-would-stoner-do-2020-rifle-prod132663.aspx

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Nice.

I am going 50 Shades of FDE with this build. I hope Geissele decides to sell a complete DDC upper with their 16" HBAR to save me some time and money.

Is there any chance that the WWSD2020 won't be banned if reviewed?

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organizat...LicensingDivision/Firearms/FirearmSearch.aspx

""The Maryland State Police is responsible for reaching its own conclusions with respect to whether particular firearms are copies of enumerated banned firearms. In reaching those conclusions, the Maryland State Police adheres to the process articulated in the Firearms Bulletin #10-2 dated November 4, 2010 a copy of which may be found on our website. To that end, the Maryland State Police has determined that, for enforcement purposes, a firearm is considered a copy if it is both cosmetically similar to and has completely interchangeable internal components necessary for the full operation and function of one of the enumerated banned weapons. This list represents those determinations."

cosmetically similar to - looks like the AR15 so it fails that.

completely interchangeable internal components - there should be several internal components that are not interchangeable, or missing that should not provide full operation and function of the rifle. So it could be argued that it is not a copy of the AR-15.
PDQ ambi bolt release - requires a hole to be cut into the lower receiver, so it is not interchangeable.
No forward assist upper receiver- no internals for forward assist, so it does not provide full funciton.


Two differences in the gun may seem small, but if you look at the banned list it marks the HK416/556A1, and BRN-PROTO as not banned, as they are not considered copies of AR-15.

HK-416/556A1 -

"This firearm was originally determined by the Maryland State Police to be a copy of the Colt AR-15. The determination was based on infomation provided by the manufacturer's website. After confirming additional information provided to the Maryland State Police, it would appear that the following internal components of the H & K MR556A1 are not interchangeable with the Colt AR-15; the bolt carrier group, upper receiver, barrel nut, barrel extension with supporting extractor, gas block, piston rod group, piston with rings therefore the H & K MR556A1 is not a copy"

BRN_PROTO - Brownells copy of the prototype AR-15, it has a no forward assist, with no BCG teeth cuts, and has a top mounted charging handle. I am pretty sure everything else is interchangeable with an AR-15.

Then again, it is being sold as the ""AR-15 MKIII WWSD 2020 rifle" that doesn't help the argument for the gun but it is just a name.
Also What constitutes full operation and function? bolt release, and forward assist are fairly insignificant to making the gun go bang.

The MDSP website suggest contacting the manufacturer(KE ARMS LLC), dealer(Brownells), and/or an attorney, before submitting a rifle for review.
Is there a good way to go about this to get some positive responses from KE, and Brownells?
Are there any lawyers willing to chime in their non-legal advice views?

Less cross posting. MSP aren’t known to be kind to us. But the lower cannot interchange a buffer tube, castle nut, end plate, pistol grip, pistol grip screw or take down and pivot pins with a regular AR lower.

That’s a lot of parts that are not interchangeable.

The safest course is to buy the lower and use a 16"+ heavy barrel upper, piston upper, or non-5.56 upper. Weight difference is maybe 1-1.5 lbs.

They have finalized the production specification

vgplayer said:

The safest course is to buy the lower and use a 16"+ heavy barrel upper, piston upper, or non-5.56 upper. Weight difference is maybe 1-1.5 lbs.

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That was my thought as well even if Ian and Karl at Inrange do not recommend this in the MD situation. But I refuse to pay the King's you could make a pistol tax and wait for a lower which can never become a pistol because the stock is integrated. I still really hope to get the lower at some point but it is not happening here.

1841DNG said:

That was my thought as well even if Ian and Karl at Inrange do not recommend this in the MD situation. But I refuse to pay the King's you could make a pistol tax and wait for a lower which can never become a pistol because the stock is integrated. I still really hope to get the lower at some point but it is not happening here.

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One of the things that the pencil barrel does is make the rifle balance well. A heavy barrel would make the rifle front heavy.

I believe a case can be made that this is not an copy of the Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle. There are enough differences including the receiver itself to demonstrate this. The real question is whether FFLs will agree.

jcutonilli said:

One of the things that the pencil barrel does is make the rifle balance well. A heavy barrel would make the rifle front heavy.

I believe a case can be made that this is not an copy of the Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle. There are enough differences including the receiver itself to demonstrate this. The real question is whether FFLs will agree.

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I had no issues getting a GWACS lower transferred to me. Essentially the same as the KE Arms lower (I am will aware of the actual differences).

Honestly my 18” fluted HBAR 6.5 Grendel hunting rifle built on a GWACS lower balances really well. Just in front of the mag well. Makes it easy to carry one handed. Using a red dot or irons might make it a little too far forward balanced, but a 16” fluted HBAR would help bring that balance back.

I get the light weight at the expense of a bunch.

My fairly lightweight AR-15 with 16” fluted HBAR and a pretty light 12” hand guard is something like 6lbs4oz with a Sig Romeo 5 dot.

Swapping to a GWACS or KE arms lower would probably trim 3-4oz and a couple other pricey bits for ultimate weight savings could probably get it to close to 5#10oz.

But I’ll be honest. I am kind of in “why territory”. A lot of expense when it is already pretty light. Oh, don’t get me wrong I LOVE my GWACS lower and I’ll probably get a KE Arms lower at some point. More one of those at some point you are spending a lot of money and starting to make compromises to shave an ounce.

I could slap on an adjustable gas block, lighter buffer weight and lightweight BCG and maybe shave 4-6oz. But reliability would also probably become iffy.

lazarus said:

I had no issues getting a GWACS lower transferred to me. Essentially the same as the KE Arms lower (I am will aware of the actual differences).

Honestly my 18” fluted HBAR 6.5 Grendel hunting rifle built on a GWACS lower balances really well. Just in front of the mag well. Makes it easy to carry one handed. Using a red dot or irons might make it a little too far forward balanced, but a 16” fluted HBAR would help bring that balance back.

I get the light weight at the expense of a bunch.

My fairly lightweight AR-15 with 16” fluted HBAR and a pretty light 12” hand guard is something like 6lbs4oz with a Sig Romeo 5 dot.

Swapping to a GWACS or KE arms lower would probably trim 3-4oz and a couple other pricey bits for ultimate weight savings could probably get it to close to 5#10oz.

But I’ll be honest. I am kind of in “why territory”. A lot of expense when it is already pretty light. Oh, don’t get me wrong I LOVE my GWACS lower and I’ll probably get a KE Arms lower at some point. More one of those at some point you are spending a lot of money and starting to make compromises to shave an ounce.

I could slap on an adjustable gas block, lighter buffer weight and lightweight BCG and maybe shave 4-6oz. But reliability would also probably become iffy.

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The issue is not getting a lower transferred, it is about what it can be built into. Was it transferred via a 77R or was it cash and carry? If it is considered a regulated firearm receiver then the WWSD rifle would be prohibited. Given my understanding of the rules neither the GWACS lower nor the KW arms polymer receivers should be considered regulated firearms. They should be cash and carry.

I take it you have not followed the WWSD project. Its goal was not to make a super lightweight rifle. It was to update the original Stoner concepts given all of the updated technology we have available today, hence the name What Would Stoner Do (today) (WWSD). They went through various parts to figure out what the modern incarnation would look like. Reliability was one of the factors that mattered.

The current WWSD 2020 rifle has a 16" pencil barrel with a 15" handguard and weighs just under 5 lbs without an optic or sights.

They found the GWACS lower to be the best up to date version. This turned into the updated KE15 because the GWACS lower could no longer be produced.

The include a KE arms trigger, which is supposedly more reliable.

They found a pencil barrel that does not shift point of aim after firing.

They went with a carbon fiber handguard that offers light weight and heat resistance from a hot barrel.

They went with a captured buffer spring assembly for reliability.

They also made it ambidextrous.

In the 2020 version they went with a chrome plated bolt and bolt carrier that is supposedly more reliable. They specifically rejected a lightweight BCG because of reliability.

Hopping on this with yet another variant we probably won't be able to get - the WWSD Civil Defense model (new this year, and I just saw it today in my feed, so...)

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/civil-defense-rifle-cdr-rifle-prod141120.aspx

Looks like Ian had fun with it!

https://youtu.be/_wPB2S-6YFM