Inline Bullets

GSuders · Oct 23, 2018

I have a T/C Omega that I've been hunting with and using T/C shockwaves. I'd like to find another bullet that is as accurate, but leave a way better blood trail. The shockwaves have disappointed me on more than 1 occasion with a poor blood trail from a good hit. What are you guys using and have had good results with?

lazarus · Oct 23, 2018

GSuders said:
I have a T/C Omega that I've been hunting with and using T/C shockwaves. I'd like to find another bullet that is as accurate, but leave a way better blood trail. The shockwaves have disappointed me on more than 1 occasion with a poor blood trail from a good hit. What are you guys using and have had good results with?

I’d say .44 mag 240gr XTP...but not too happy about the last deer I took with one. That said, not sure that was entirely the bullets fault.

First deer I took was a big 8-pt 4 years ago. Straight broadside shot, both lungs, ribs on both sides and big exit wound. Dropped a lot of blood and only went 20yds. At about 75yds

Next year I took a doe at about 60yds, spine hit broadside, dropped it and smashed a big hole right through it. Lots of blood (not that it went anywhere)

A few days ago, a BIG 5-pt, broadside, very slight quartering away angle. Smashed ribs in, rear of one lung, top of the heart, ribs on the other side and lodged under the muscle and hide on the far side. Left no blood.

Not sure how much on the last deer the lack of blood was the bullets fault. Smash a heart like that and it isn’t really pumping any blood to leave (took out the entire top of the heart) with no blood pressure. I am disappointed in the lack of exit wound. Decent penetration still, that was probably 16+ inches through the toughest part of the deer.

I do plan to try 300gr .44 XTP bullets and 265gr FTX bullets next year. I might try some for the late season if I think I will have the time to try sighting in my ML again. I’d also switched to BH209 powder from 777 FFFg. So the extra velocity (probably 50-60fps from 100gr of 777 to 100gr of BH209) may have a bit to do with it too. Bullet didn’t fall apart, good opening, but may have overexpanded and a bit more weight would have likely allowed it to push the rest of the way through.

Still damn devestating.

GuitarmanNick · Oct 23, 2018

Probably not the advice you are seeking, but...

I have taken many bucks(never shot a doe) over my lifetime using a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30. I never took a shot that was over 150 yards which is about the point this round loses the knock down power that deer require. No buck ever required a second shot. Many fell where they were standing(neck shot was my preferred target) and most within 25 yards. I only had to track one buck which was not a clean kill and that was because the rifle butt was poorly positioned on wet rain gear and slid as I shot. All my fault! I was aiming for the heart, but this pulled my shot and I hit him in the gut. This left almost no blood to use for tracking in the rain on wet leaf litter. I found him the next morning(I track better than most) but never made that mistake again.

Based on my experience if you do not have a decent blood trail,... you need to make a better shot! Bullets cannot be blamed for your choice to use them or their point of impact! If the ballistics indicate the bullet will penetrate and cause damage, then it will penetrate and cause damage. Take your time and if you don't have a good kill shot, wait until you do. Be careful not to exceed the limits of your round, rifle or skills for a humane and clean kill.

Doco Overboard · Oct 23, 2018

The problem with using pistol bullets driven at higher than handgun velocities in a mL is that they often do not perform as well because of fragmentation. Especially when a shoulder hit is made or the shot is made at an angle.
What a bullet like an xtp will do is help to get across the beans to where velocity slows a bit and then becomes inside the scope of the way the bullet was engineered.

When I used to shoot a lot of deer I learned early on that even with heavy conicals sometimes a pronounced blood trail did not always result. So there for a time I cast alot of 370 grain maxi hunters with additional linotype to get an exit hole. The loss in that respect was that all the energy was not entirely transferred to the animal which equated to more distance the deer would run before it fell out.

So then back to pure lead minie balls that would almost always wind up just inside the hide prior to exiting.
Muzzle loading for big game is a big heavy slug driven at modest velocities to transfer the energy to the game and a well placed shot. Speer used to make a good 44cal pistol bullet that seemed to work reasonably well in a few of my rifles but was most commonly found in 44 cal. A gold dot not a .452 bullet that I prefer for consistency.

I never seen massive blood trails or internal clotting/ tissue damage like you would get from a center fire rifle in a MZ that I owned. Sometimes but not always. Mostly just a neat 1/2 hole that looks like it was punched out with a hole punch, some blood and clotting in the body cavity when you cut the windpipe gutting it.

Other users may experiance different mileage with their tackle.

lax · Oct 23, 2018

Check out the Barnes expander mz

balttigger · Oct 23, 2018

I use these with a sabot. Great accuracy.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/452-controlled-fracturing-muzzleloader-265gr-bullet?variant=28146206856

lazarus · Oct 23, 2018

Doco Overboard said:
The problem with using pistol bullets driven at higher than handgun velocities in a mL is that they often do not perform as well because of fragmentation. Especially when a shoulder hit is made or the shot is made at an angle.
What a bullet like an xtp will do is help to get across the beans to where velocity slows a bit and then becomes inside the scope of the way the bullet was engineered.

When I used to shoot a lot of deer I learned early on that even with heavy conicals sometimes a pronounced blood trail did not always result. So there for a time I cast alot of 370 grain maxi hunters with additional linotype to get an exit hole. The loss in that respect was that all the energy was not entirely transferred to the animal which equated to more distance the deer would run before it fell out.

So then back to pure lead minie balls that would almost always wind up just inside the hide prior to exiting.
Muzzle loading for big game is a big heavy slug driven at modest velocities to transfer the energy to the game and a well placed shot. Speer used to make a good 44cal pistol bullet that seemed to work reasonably well in a few of my rifles but was most commonly found in 44 cal. A gold dot not a .452 bullet that I prefer for consistency.

I never seen massive blood trails or internal clotting/ tissue damage like you would get from a center fire rifle in a MZ that I owned. Sometimes but not always. Mostly just a neat 1/2 hole that looks like it was punched out with a hole punch, some blood and clotting in the body cavity when you cut the windpipe gutting it.

Other users may experiance different mileage with their tackle.

That’s what a .44 mag bullet is for. They are generally designed for much higher velocities. A .45 XTP bullet is generally designed for 800-1200fps velocities. .44 XTP mag bullets are designed for 1200-1600fps velocities.

Using more powerful powder also helps. Real black powder is maybe going to get a ~250-300gr bullet out of the muzzle at 1400-1600fps. Pyrodex might net 1750fps. 777 can push 1850-1900fps. Blackhorn 209 can push 2050fps. Granualar powder more so than pellets (figure pellets are on the lower end of those velocities, even with 150gr charges).

Now I’ll grant you the performance this past time was somewhat less than ideal. But that first deer, the lungs basically came out as soup when I opened it up. The deer I spine hit there was very obvious tissue damage 2+” in diameter around the bullet path from bone fragmentation (not bullet frag). This deer I am pretty sure the bullet experienced over expansion which rapidly slowed it and had less internal damage deep than I’ve seen previously.

Partly why I am looking to try 265gr FTX .44 mag or 300gr XTP in 44 mag.

Doobie · Oct 24, 2018

GuitarmanNick said:
Probably not the advice you are seeking, but...

I have taken many bucks(never shot a doe) over my lifetime using a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30. I never took a shot that was over 150 yards which is about the point this round loses the knock down power that deer require. No buck ever required a second shot. Many fell where they were standing(neck shot was my preferred target) and most within 25 yards. I only had to track one buck which was not a clean kill and that was because the rifle butt was poorly positioned on wet rain gear and slid as I shot. All my fault! I was aiming for the heart, but this pulled my shot and I hit him in the gut. This left almost no blood to use for tracking in the rain on wet leaf litter. I found him the next morning(I track better than most) but never made that mistake again.

Based on my experience if you do not have a decent blood trail,... you need to make a better shot! Bullets cannot be blamed for your choice to use them or their point of impact! If the ballistics indicate the bullet will penetrate and cause damage, then it will penetrate and cause damage. Take your time and if you don't have a good kill shot, wait until you do. Be careful not to exceed the limits of your round, rifle or skills for a humane and clean kill.

No such thing as “knock down power.” If the bullet is placed in the right area, a deer will die whether the bullet has 1,500 ft/lbs of energy or 100. I’ve seen deer shot with rifles that had 2,800 ft-lbs of “knock down power” at the point of impact and the deer was never found. I’ve also seen deer shot with varmint rifles that supposedly didn’t have enough “knock down power” and the deer dropped right there. Bullet placement causing blood loss and/or disruption of the central nervous system are what kills, not “knock down power”.

willtill · Oct 24, 2018

I have a TC Arms Omega...

...and I've never had a problem using TC Arms 250gr Shockwaves with 90gr of 777.

Deer have always dropped within several steps. Sometimes I don't see an exit would, but the bullet is devastating in the deers boiler room.

I don't see the need to find another bullet or powder for this rifle.

As remarked, shot placement is absolutely critical. Get that bullet into the proper spot, and it will do it's work as intended.

Am off today and heading to my stand in about 30 minutes. Hopefully will be bringing home a doe shortly.

.

lazarus · Oct 24, 2018

Well I am biting the bullet (sorry for the pun) on 300gr .44 XTP.

I was waffling on the 265gr FTX. If Hornady is accurate, the 300gr .44 XTP has a higher B.C. than the 265gr FTX. The meplat on the XTP is wider than the FTX. So in theory it will probably “hit harder” and the higher SD of the 300gr XTP over the 265FTX will likely also penetrate deeper.

The 265gr is also designed for a Marlin .444 so it may want higher velocities to expand well compared to a 300gr .44 XTP, which is designed to expand at lower speeds.

So no idea. I suspect it’ll wallop whatever it hits. Also probably a lot more recoil.

newmuzzleloader · Oct 24, 2018

I've used Hornady's 250 gr. version of the shockwave( I think it's their ftx bullet) and it seems to be luck of the draw as for knockdown power. The first doe I shot with these 10yrs ago dropped where she stood with a button buck standing behind her falling almost on top of her, while I remember having a devil of a time tracking another deer because it was shot high through and through and left very little blood. Another time a button buck had the bottom of his heart shot off and left a blood trail you could see at 100 yds but he still ran another 50 or 60 yds jumping a fence and running more before piling up. The buck I just took Thursday had an ENORMOUS amount of damage just inside the entrance wound, the bullet never exited and he ran 100 yds before dropping. Blood was spotty the first 30yds or so but pouring out of him by the end. I have another muzzleloader exactly the same that I shot another deer last year using the 250 gr Shockwave. He ran maybe 25 yds but left very little blood.
It seems some deer have more of a shock tolerance than others.

GuitarmanNick · Oct 24, 2018

Doobie said:
No such thing as “knock down power.” If the bullet is placed in the right area, a deer will die whether the bullet has 1,500 ft/lbs of energy or 100. I’ve seen deer shot with rifles that had 2,800 ft-lbs of “knock down power” at the point of impact and the deer was never found. I’ve also seen deer shot with varmint rifles that supposedly didn’t have enough “knock down power” and the deer dropped right there. Bullet placement causing blood loss and/or disruption of the central nervous system are what kills, not “knock down power”.

Agreed that placement and not "knock down power" is what kills. What I should have said was that I always insured that my shot would have the necessary energy remaining when reaching the target to penetrate deeply enough to produce a quick and clean kill.

lazarus · Oct 24, 2018

newmuzzleloader said:
I've used Hornady's 250 gr. version of the shockwave( I think it's their ftx bullet) and it seems to be luck of the draw as for knockdown power. The first doe I shot with these 10yrs ago dropped where she stood with a button buck standing behind her falling almost on top of her, while I remember having a devil of a time tracking another deer because it was shot high through and through and left very little blood. Another time a button buck had the bottom of his heart shot off and left a blood trail you could see at 100 yds but he still ran another 50 or 60 yds jumping a fence and running more before piling up. The buck I just took Thursday had an ENORMOUS amount of damage just inside the entrance wound, the bullet never exited and he ran 100 yds before dropping. Blood was spotty the first 30yds or so but pouring out of him by the end. I have another muzzleloader exactly the same that I shot another deer last year using the 250 gr Shockwave. He ran maybe 25 yds but left very little blood.
It seems some deer have more of a shock tolerance than others.

The shockwaves and FTX bullets aren’t the same construction, even though they look similar.

That said, I think part of the issue is that the velocities just aren’t high enough. To get true shock damage you need velocities, at the target, in excess of 2000fps. I think the general expected “shock” range is around 2400fps.

Below that and you can’t cause instant incapacitation on a good hit. I am sure there is plenty of grey area on that velocity. I doubt 2390fps means no shock value and 2410fps means a good hit will cause it to be DRT.

But with most muzzleloader loaded hot only hitting 2000-2100fps at the muzzle...you aren’t really going to cause shock damage. Big, nasty, terrible holes sure.

I hit a button buck at 15yds with a 1 1/8oz federal truball slug out of my 870. It nearly blew its leg off, shredded one lung, holed the other and put a silver dollar sized hole out the other side (entry hole was about 2” across). It hopped 10yds before falling over and took probably 30 seconds to die. That is basically 490gr of lead moving at 1600fps at the muzzle and I am sure the ~.7” diameter bullet probably expanded to over an inch on impact.

GuitarmanNick · Oct 24, 2018

Hit him in the neck with a slug. Ruins the roast completely, nearly takes the head off, but all of the other meat is perfect!

geda · Oct 25, 2018

I only have a couple years of ML under my belt, but have experimented with several guns and bullets. I think blood trail is more a function of shot placement than bullet type, while "knock down" depends on placement AND energy transfer. For blood trails the same thing applies to archery/ML/modern, holes in the chest that rip up heart lung area make blood trails. Ideally you are from a stand so the exit hole is real low like a oil drain plug on a car. No matter what weapon you are using a shot in the shoulders/neck/gut/backstrap is not going to make a good blood trail. You better pray there is snow on the ground. For ML I always take archery style double lung shots, but use biggest and heaviest bullet I can shoot so that an unfortunate double shoulder shot will make it all the way through both sides.

I have had great luck with the cheap TC sabot and skirted ammo they sell at walmart out of a TC Encore with bergara barrel. Last year I upgraded to a silencerco maxim which can not use normal discarding sabot ammo. The only ammo they recommended( Federal BOR Lock and Hornady FPB) was $$$, hard to get and not much better than the cheap stuff. I wanted to experiment with non-sabot hard cast this year but run out of time.

lazarus · Oct 26, 2018

I poked back through my hunting journal. Yeah, that 8 point a few years ago was a 240gr .430 diameter XTP on top of 100gr of pyrodex, versus the same bullet and 100gr of BH209 and slightly closer range on this 5-point. Body size was pretty close to the same between the two deer. The 8-point probably wasn't more than 20 or 30lbs heavier. If that.

My best guess is a little heavier tissue (heart) and the fact that the 5-point, the bullet was probably traveling a good 300fps faster, so the bullet probably opened both faster and more, causing it to not be able to penetrate fully.

So, IMHO, I think if they shoot well, switching to 300gr .430 diameter XTP is probably the way to go for what I want (deeper penetration). They'll be going slightly slower, but a lot higher kinetic energy (15-20% higher for the same powder charge) and a lot higher weight for the same sectional density.

JWBanshee · Oct 30, 2018

Golden Harvester

I shoot the 295 grain Golden harvester, withthe black sabot and 70 grains of Blackhorn 209. Same gun, shoots well , shot a nice but last year at 165 yards.
Check out Precesion Bullets, the canadian knows a thing or two about bullets and blackhorn, 209.

hobiecat590 · Oct 30, 2018

mz?

lax said:
Check out the Barnes expander mz

I have a TC Encore and wanted to try these. Do you like the 250 or 300 grain version? I was going to try both w/ 100 gns 777 to see what the gun likes better. These are very hard to find right now.

FWIW, I've had MOA accuracy from Powerbelt 295s, BUT have been very unhappy their terminal performance. These things tend to fragment inside the deer and don't always exit. The deer also tend to travel 30-100 yards with lung and heart shots. BTW, I don't do heart shots anymore because hearts are tasty, and more important, when you blow up the pump, forget about a blood trail.

2701Jim · Oct 30, 2018

The Barnes TEZ (Flat Base ) or TMZ (Boat Tail) in 250 Gr. behind a charge of !00 Gr. of any powder should be enough for any Whitetail up to 150 yards. I use this load in 3 different CVA's with great success after switching from Hornadys SST's 4 years ago.Barnes is the way to go IMHO.

Doco Overboard · Oct 30, 2018

Heres an image of a xtp that had slowed to a modest velocity that retained most of its weight. Right around 238 or so grains if memory serves me correctly.

Charge was 42g of SR4759 and a MMP HP sabot. Energy dump was also sufficient to grass a mature whitetail inside 40 yards at about 192 paces.

Blood loss was almost non evident where impact occurred and fortunately tracking wasn't difficult due to soft ground conditions and because of the short distance the animal traveled before completely expiring.

There was a small bit of blood puddling on recovery but no extraordinary amount of sign that would have allowed difficult tracking measures to be overcome in other circumstances, such as the intermittent presence of water or heavy foliage/overgrowth like in a cut over during darkness.

I do not recall measuring how much the bullet expanded outside of its original diameter because I felt it had worked as intended. What I did do was weigh it, capture an image for comparison and throw it in the dross pot to reclaim the metal.

Other bullets of this type have displayed complete separation of jacket and core with substantial degradation,combined with substantial loss of retained weight. This has become evident when bullet strike has occurred at an angle at reduced ranges, or when they have impacted dense shoulder tissue or bone.

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