Thinking about experimenting with knife making

I’ve got several large 18” steel diamond saw blades at the shop that are no good for cutting as the diamond teeth are worn out. These were pretty good quality as we pay about $450 a piece. I suspect they are heat treated too because cutting granite is pretty hard on these blades.

I’m thinking about testing one to make some knife blanks and them try my hand at heat treating and grinding.



I realize there is a lot to learn here. I figure I’ve got quite a bit of them to experiment with too. From what i’m seeing on the interweb it seems that there are two camps. Some have had great results and others not so great. Even if my final result is better than chinese wall-mart quality it’s probably worth my time to teach myself a few things.

I’m just curious if any other members here have tried to make knives from salvaged steel and can offer any pointers.

Call member Blacksmith...

Nnztg8r said:

Call member Blacksmith...

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The problem you have using mystery metal is you don't know what the composition is and therefore don't know what the proper hardening and tempering parameters are. I always recommend if you are working on a project that you will put a lot of time into then buy raw material that you know what it is and what the proper times and temperatures are for hardening and more importantly tempering.

If you want to try your mystery metal your best bet is to take a small sample and test your heat treatment procedures first. The problems commonly encountered are you have no accurate way of measuring temperature nor any way of measuring the hardness afterward. In addition most home shops lack the equipment to provide controlled heating ramp (number of degrees per unit of time) and accurate soaking time/temperature (hold at X degrees for Y minutes depending on thickness) and the critical after quenching, in the proper medium, re heat temperature to draw the hardness to the finish temper.

The old timers and blacksmiths did all of the above using forges, and observing colors both for judging heat and controlling temper however they were dealing with simple carbon steel and very simple alloys. It can be done but you probably need someone to show you what to look for (TV and videos and even photographs do not render the colors accurately) and you will need a lot of practice to do it repeatedly.

Finally there is a lot of bad heat treating advice on the internet so if someone doesn't know what phase diagrams are, or the importance of the differences between face centered cubic and body centered cubic crystals and why the critical temperature is important then find your information somewhere else.

Here is what typical (this is for O1 Tool Steel) heat treating information looks like. Other alloys may have different parameters.

HEAT TREATMENT: For sections smaller than 1/4", heat to 1450-1475°F and hold until heated through. For larger sections, preheat to 1200°F, then raise to 1450-1500°F hardening temperature. Hold one-half hour per inch of cross section. Quench in oil at 125-150°F and TEMPER IMMEDIATELY.

TEMPERING DATA:
Temper °F Rockwell C Hardness
As Quenched 63-65
300 63-65
400 61-64
500 60-63
600 57-60
800 48-51
1000 44-48

ToolAA

I see you are in Ellicott City.
Take some blacksmith classes.

Rough and Tumble Engineers Historical Association
http://www.roughandtumble.org/viewreference/54/eventschedules/

Howard County Farm Museum
http://www.farmheritage.org/blacksmith-workshop.html

The BLACKSMITH GUILD OF CENTRAL MARYLAND Inc.
http://www.bgcmonline.org/index.php?classes

You will find many classes will not teach how to make sharp pointy objects. This is because most dedicated blacksmiths realize there is much more to the craft than knives and they do not want to see the bad publicity that would result from someone getting injured by something made by a "Blacksmith". However the basic steps of forging, hardening and tempering are the same no matter what objects you choose to make. I generally do not make those things but am fully capable of doing so, actually I have promised a good friend a special patch knife but am only doing it as a favor. I have plenty of other challenges to keep me busy.

What kind of projects does a modern day blacksmith tackle?

FrankOceanXray said:

What kind of projects does a modern day blacksmith tackle?

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If you want a challenge try to recreate how they made fish hooks or sewing needles, they are a lot harder than you might think. Other challenges would be file making which I haven't tried yet but have read up on. At the moment I have been studying and experimenting with hand forging gun locks and the evolution of locks from match lock to snaphaunce lock, Dog Lock, and Flintlock. A future project is to forge a loggerhead out of period wrought iron and I would like to actually make true wrought iron. Too many projects not enough time.

Other people make flowers, or candle holders, cooking utensils, specialized hammers, other tools, hardware, etc.

A lot of the challenge is figuring out how things were done because the blacksmiths did not write down detailed step by step instructions. The knowledge was passed down through the apprentice system and there were 'smiths who specialized in certain products and much of that knowledge has been lost. An example is that near where I live was the center for making augers in colonial times. I have examined a signed locally made auger that was probably made less than a mile from my house and although I have an idea of how it was possibly made it would take many tries and probably reinventing of some specialized tools to reproduce something that was made in quantity by a number of local manufacturers and sold over a wide area 300 years ago.

An example of the difficulties of recreating how things were done. It only took them a year of Saturdays to work it out.
http://ruralblacksmith.blogspot.com/2010/07/scottish-pistol-project-part-ii.html

Some examples of projects:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bla...XHpqfbAhXxp1kKHdqHDmQQsAQIJg&biw=1280&bih=585

Yes I have .

Made a Bowie from an old truck leaf spring . ( No , I don't remember the tempering specifics this many years later , but it tested 57C ) .

Back in the day , before specialty knife steels were available with a click of the internet , the two primary sources for repurposed steels for knife making were leaf springs, and large circular saw blades

I think I'd call a knife making supplier and order up some O-1 steel. At least then you'd know exactly what you were getting, and how to heat treat it. Mystery metal will be more grief than it's worth. A diamond tipped blade likely doesn't have very good steel in the core. Since the cutting edges were diamond, the core was less important. It didn't have to be sharpened. It just had to have some diamond tips brazed to it.

Do it. You got the tools at your disposal, materials at hand and a desire to learn. One blad can make a handful of knives? Sounds like plenty of trial and error... Odds are you get a decent knife.... Bespoke.


Take photos, take notes... Share them with us!

Blacksmith101 said:

The problem you have using mystery metal is you don't know what the composition is and therefore don't know what the proper hardening and tempering parameters are. I always recommend if you are working on a project that you will put a lot of time into then buy raw material that you know what it is and what the proper times and temperatures are for hardening and more importantly tempering.

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Blacksmith thanks for your detailed posts. I’m just getting power back after the storms last night and therefore internet connection.

I’m going to email the blade manufacturer. We probably spend $3-4k a year on these blades so they may be kind enough to let me know the steel type.

I think I will still cut out the blanks on the waterjet just to get a feel for how the jet cutting will work and to get a feel for the proper knife shape designs. Then I’ll try to practice grinding the edges.

I do not have a forge at home so I was planning on sending them to Texas Knife supply for heat treating, but reading their site more closely I noticed that they only heat treat certain steel types. Still another good reason to purchase steel blanks.

ToolAA said:

Blacksmith thanks for your detailed posts. I’m just getting power back after the storms last night and therefore internet connection.

I’m going to email the blade manufacturer. We probably spend $3-4k a year on these blades so they may be kind enough to let me know the steel type.

I think I will still cut out the blanks on the waterjet just to get a feel for how the jet cutting will work and to get a feel for the proper knife shape designs. Then I’ll try to practice grinding the edges.

I do not have a forge at home so I was planning on sending them to Texas Knife supply for heat treating, but reading their site more closely I noticed that they only heat treat certain steel types. Still another good reason to purchase steel blanks.

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Water jet cutting will work just fine.

There are more local companies that do heat treating. If you know the steel it is made from and the hardness you want when finished any commercial heat treater should be able to do it.

It appears these people bought out the company that bought the company I used to use in Baltimore. Industry is not like it once was in the USA.
http://treatmetal.com/

Atlantic Heat Treat
402 East Front Street
Wilmington, DE 19801-3956
ph: 302-656-1677
fax: 302-656-4370

Bad link

The saw blade company did email me back and said they do use high chrome steel but the way they make the blades is that they sandwich a layer of non-ferrous allow between the two layers of steel. This acts as some sort of noise dampener when curing through stone. It would be totally unsuitable for knife making.

My brother works at a company who makes custom trim molding. He sent me a few 5/16 bars of 0-1 tool steel. I cut out the moulder knives for him on the water jet and the shapes came out really accurately.

So I’m going to order a Damascus billet for my chef knife creation. If it turns out it’s going to be a Christmas gift for my son.


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Work schedule got in the way but I’m finally starting my first knife project. Going to be a Japanese style chef’s knife for my son. Decided against a stainless Damascus billet for the first project as I don’t want to experiment on a $250 billet. Went with 13”x2”x3/16”

My brother works at a millwork shop in Florida so he sent me a few blocks fancy hardwoods.

Here is my design rendering.

Gorgeous.

Burrbender is a great local sharpening service and may be a good contact to discuss the craft.

What a thoughtful gift, too. Lifetime.

FrankOceanXray said:

Gorgeous.

Burrbender is a great local sharpening service and may be a good contact to discuss the craft.

What a thoughtful gift, too. Lifetime.

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Thanks for the compliment. I’m getting excited to get started. Maybe tomorrow.

I’ve been practicing sharpening my chef knives on whetstones. I’m getting better and just ordered #4000 and #8000 stones. I think my plan is to teach my son how to sharpen it himself.

Basically another lifetime free gift and a way to spend adult to young adult time with him.

Decided to make a plastic template before cutting steel. I wanted to make sure the distance from the chin to the curve was long enough to allow for a smooth rocking/chopping motion. It feels right.



Now I need to select the wood for the scales. I think Im just going with the Wenge. (Left)

Spend a few hours each night this week and got out of work early today and spend more time grinding the knife shape.

It’s coming along nicely considering this is my first attempt and i’m using a $69 Harbor Freight 1x30 belt sander. I might have to make some precise angle jigs for the final grinding after heat treating.



Wont be done for Christmas but he’ll get the idea.


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Excellent. How's it cut????

FrankOceanXray said:

Excellent. How's it cut????

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This is just the rough grind. I still have about .030” thickness at the edge. After I show it to him for Christmas, I’ll send it out for heat treating then finish up the handle and to the final sharpening.