Soon to be gun owner needs advice and stuff

rob-cubed said:

Nice find. Classic Arms definitely has a good deal going on the VZ, especially if they are willing to ship the mags to a separate location... I'd hate to replace two mags at a premium of $40 each. MarkP, how hard is it to switch the folding stock? Does the receiver have a removable block, or is that hinge fixed? The wire folders get uncomfortable, especially on a 7.62x39.

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It is a single screw to replace the stock, it's a removable block. If it takes you longer than 3 mins, you're doing it ALL wrong. The mags are only $15 each, and if you buy 4 you get a free carrying case, APEX and others have them. You need to stop shopping on Gun Broker.

Mark

Markp said:

You need to stop shopping on Gun Broker.

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That was actually a J&G price.

You've convinced me that I need my own VZ-58 to keep the Saigas company...

So OP should seriously consider one, especially if non-regulated is an issue. But since ammo is a huge expense over the lifetime of a gun, a 5.45 Saiga or Bulgy AK should stay in the running. Going to the range was a luxury when I was starting out in my 20's (and 7.62 was dirt cheap back then).

The only other non-regulated rifle I like and would recommend considering is the Kel-Tec SU16. It shoots as good as my ARs and has proven very reliable; however it feels cheap (being largely plastic) and is pretty expensive for what it is--plus ammo is even more expensive than that for AKs.

@Markp:
I was told that he would consider the VZ unregulated, but he will still wait for me to turn 21 before I could make the transaction (only 3 more weeks!!! ).

For future reference, would you happen to know how exactly I would go about getting to the Alexandria post office (like what trains should I take)?

Much appreciation for the help.

@ImperatorZices: I just called Classic Arms and they said they would not send hi-cap mags to an out-of-state location if your billing address or FFL is in MD. They will ship a VZ58 here without mags, but will not discount the total cost of the rifle to make up for the $30 in missing parts.

Impact and Apex are selling VZ58 mags for $15, looks like you will need to order them separately from another vendor.

Sometimes I hate living here...

ImperatorZices said:

@Markp:
I was told that he would consider the VZ unregulated, but he will still wait for me to turn 21 before I could make the transaction (only 3 more weeks!!! ).

For future reference, would you happen to know how exactly I would go about getting to the Alexandria post office (like what trains should I take)?

Much appreciation for the help.

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Red line to metro center, get on the blue line, head on out...

MAPS.GOOGLE.COM to find the name of the station nearest to that post office. That's how I did it.

Mark

Why go through all of this??
Get a good quality AK for your b-day. Get 20 rounders (for now FTW)... Get the 30 rounders at any of the upcoming Va. or Pa. gun shows.
I'm sure the VZ is nice but why have a gun with zero interchangeable parts to other AK's and the wierd mags?

@rob-cubed:
Seriously!? Wow. That sucks. Do you know if even those other two will ship the mags out of state?

Poo. This is turning sour real fast. Is there another site that sells the VZ for a similar price (at most the cost of the mags more than ClassicArms ) and is willing to ship the magazines to VA?

Thanks for that bit of info by the way.

I own a VZ-58 (hence why I have an avatar of one) and all I can say is that it is a very nice rifle.

I have owned two, a D-Technik CZ built one and currently own an ORF. You may be wondering why I decided to sell the Czech built one for an ORF and here are the reasons. The main reason is that when I collect military rifles I like them to be as original as possible (an OCD trait of mine for guns). Thus the ORF one was more original than the CZ one albeit the CZ one was made in the Czech Republic:

1) correct finish: the CZ had a parkerized black finish while the ORF one had the correct Czech military gray phosphate finish (and I think the gray finish on the CZ looks better than black)

2) evil features: the CZ since it is foreign built has to be built along the lines of the '89 import AWB in the sense that it cannot have certain "evil features" on it like bayonet lugs and threaded barrels. The CZ one has none of them and kind of annoyed me. The ORF one had the bayonet lug. Although the barrel on a VZ is naturally less than 16" that would make it fall into NFA territory mine has a welded muzzle brake on it which makes it 16" and thus non-NFA. And believe me a muzzle brake on a VZ does wonders for it. On the CZ I had to constantly readjust my aim after every shot from the recoil cause of nothing at the end of the barrel to keep it from going up. With the ORF one and brake on it the barrel is constantly on target shot after shot keeping the barrel straight, level, as well as improving recoil.

3) cosmetic and build: Each had its pros and cons. The pros of the CZ were that the mag release paddle was easier to manipulate. That really was the only pro about the CZ one. Surprisngly the ORF was built to tighter mil spec than the CZ. On the CZ I had to constantly screw in the pistol grip and buttstock cause after shooting it every often (and grant it I didn't shoot it much because of time and money) they would come loose. The handguard was extremely wobbly with the original bakelite stock on the CZ so to compensate I bought the original blonde wood stock to stop the wobble (although it required more fitting to get it to fit). On the ORF there is no wobble even with the bakelite stock on it and I haven't had to rescrew the pistol grip or buttstock yet. The con about the ORF one was that sight was canted so thankfully clandestine on here fixed it for me.

Also one feature that everyone on here forgot to mention about the VZ is that you can use stripper clips!!! That is right unlike on an AK which has no ability to use stripper clips (unless you buy the guide for the magazine for use outside of the rifle) the VZ can use stripper clips with the mag inside the gun. Like an SKS you can feed rounds through a guide with the bolt open feature after the last round ejects to feed the rifle without having to remove the magazine. After some practice like on an SKS one can become proficient. So in reality you only need one magazine and you are good to go even though I own several magazines anyway.

Range wise I would say it is much lighter and funner to shoot. I shoot pretty good groups with it. The accuracy improvement I have seen is negligible since they do fire the same cartridge.

Parts for it are easy to find. Go to the importer's website Czechpoint USA where they have every part you could possibly need for the Vz for cheap since practically all parts for the VZ come from them (probably the same place where all the other distributors get their parts too so you might as well go to their source):

http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/

They sell milsurp mags for 13.50 a pop which is a pretty nice deal.

Also IMO I would pass on the Century-built VZ's. There is a reason they are cheap and many on here and around the web can attest to Century's build quality. If you feel lucky go ahead but I am not that lucky of a person to try.

Also to the OP, send me a private message if you want to meet up and see my VZ and AK's to see which you prefer better to help you out with your decision (I am in the MOCO area.)

@ Scott7891
Thanks for the detailed writeup. I didn't realize Classic Arm's VZ was a Century build, but should have figured it based on the price. Maybe I'll go the parts kit route as you have suggested.

@ImperatorZices
If you don't have experience with Century's products, they suffer from quality control and occasionally produce some real lemons. Most of the time their guns work just fine, but they usually aren't pretty and are generally less accurate than the same model firearm from any other manufacturer. If you are set on a VZ, a Century is the cheap way to go--you will more than likely be thrilled with it, and Classic Arms seems to have the best deal going (even without mags). If Scott7891 is willing to let you check out his AKs and VZs in person, and ask some questions, DO IT!

As for finding someone who will ship mags to an out-of-state address that is different than your billing one--some vendors will do it, some won't. Because Maryland's gun laws are pretty restrictive, sellers tend to be overly cautious and Classic is simply playing it safe. Don't get too discouraged, it's all part of being a gun owner in MD... if you called Classic and talked to a different salesperson you might even get a different answer...

Apologies for the lengthy wait. I haven't eaten a full meal since Christmas eve due to some stomach issues, and my willingness to live is at an all time low.

Scott's statement regarding Century built VZs has put me a little ill at ease.
Does anyone personally own a Century built VZ and can provide any input as to its overall quality, reliability, fit and finish?

Also, if the VZ I am interested in is of Century make, is it still worth it to get it over the M70?

Unfortunately, as much as I may like to, I won't be able to get a genuine CZ as it is too far out of my price range as of now.

If it means getting a rifle that works, I am willing to forgo the ease and low cost of acquiring an unregulated firearm. This being my first boomer, I really hope not to have to do a lot of repair work and adjustments outside of normal maintenance and possible optics mounting.

Thanks again everyone!

(By the way, if anyone wishes to make another suggestion, my budget is around $500 for the rifle itself prior to shipping and transfer fees.)

...hmm...quiet in here...

ImperatorZices said:

Apologies for the lengthy wait. I haven't eaten a full meal since Christmas eve due to some stomach issues, and my willingness to live is at an all time low.

Scott's statement regarding Century built VZs has put me a little ill at ease.
Does anyone personally own a Century built VZ and can provide any input as to its overall quality, reliability, fit and finish?

Also, if the VZ I am interested in is of Century make, is it still worth it to get it over the M70?

Unfortunately, as much as I may like to, I won't be able to get a genuine CZ as it is too far out of my price range as of now.

If it means getting a rifle that works, I am willing to forgo the ease and low cost of acquiring an unregulated firearm. This being my first boomer, I really hope not to have to do a lot of repair work and adjustments outside of normal maintenance and possible optics mounting.

Thanks again everyone!

(By the way, if anyone wishes to make another suggestion, my budget is around $500 for the rifle itself prior to shipping and transfer fees.)

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The M70 is made by century as well. I have not heard any complaints about the Century VZ's thus far. I would expect a fairly decent rifle, but not a show stopper that you would get from Czechpoint. It will likely be built on an ORF receiver or similar receiver and not a D-Technik. I have both receivers and I think I actually prefer the ORF slightly. Both are very nice though.

You shouldn't have to do any real work to the current batch of VZ.58's, as long as the head spacing is correct and the feed ramp is correct, you should have no problems... those are really the only 2 things that could go wrong in the assembly of this rifle by century. It's pretty well stupid proof, even more so than a AK-47 when it comes to assembly.

The only other thing in that price range that I might consider is the recent AR-15 kits that have been on the market. R-Guns is liquidating lower receivers for $55 each, and the COLT AR kits have been on the market for $500 with a new barrel. This would be an excellent deal if you wanted to build an AR yourself.

I just looked up their parts kit prices, and their DPMS kits seem like good deals.
The Colt kits also seem nice, but personally I find the A1 design to be somewhat lacking aesthetically.

Also, I recently checked a tutorial on AR15.com, and the process for building an AR seems very involved. I do not possess the appropriate tools for assembling an upper receiver, and purchasing the vice block, wrench, etc. would run up the costs rather quickly.

Would you happen to know how much it would cost to get the rifle assembled, or is there an alternative way to assemble it? Would any of you be willing to assemble it for a discount?

By the way, right now, my choices include:
Century M70AB2, Century VZ-58, Lancaster AK-74, DPMS A3 parts kit w/ Sharps AR stripped lower

Thanks for any input!

If costs are your primary driver, the AK-74 is the cheapest to shoot by a mile.

Mark

Markp said:

If costs are your primary driver, the AK-74 is the cheapest to shoot by a mile.

Mark

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+1 to that.

Surplus 5.45x39 is the cheapest centerfire rifle ammo on the market right now. The last time I checked AIM is selling 1080 round cases for $129.95. The downside is that its corrosive so be prepared for a lengthy clean when you are done shooting like I did today.

Thanks again for the information.

I was considering the Lancaster for a bit (being the cheapest option ), when I noticed that the barrel isn't chrome lined. I read that this would make it a little more difficult to maintain with corrosive ammo (as in needing more immediate tlc to keep it from rusting following use).

Also, I've hit another conundrum.* My brother said he was willing to make a financial contribution if I got an AR variant. I explained to him the pros and cons of each weapon system, and he felt that it would be beneficial to get the one with the greatest upgrade and accuracy potential.

This being an offer too tempting to just ignore, I began looking at the parts kits again . Any help in this particular area?

*My sincerest apologies for yet another change. Markp gave me yet another financially viable option, and now with so many choices I just cannot make up my mind...

Well, you can always look at it from the other side... what platform do you like best and want to own? Good guns can be had fairly cheaply though you'll get more bang for your buck with an AK. Head out to the Frostbite shoot or find a local member, and shoot a few and narrow down your choices that way.

Ammo cost can be an issue on limited funds, and you can shoot more with a commie caliber. 5.45 is dirt cheap but most is currently mil-surp and corrosive. But don't be afraid of shooting corrosive, you just have to clean it correctly and can't put the gun away dirty. A lined barrel is not a must have, even for corrosive ammo.

I would recommend that you check out ammo prices, too. .223/5.56 ammo is fairly high compared to 7.62x39 and 5.45.
Most AR guys will not shoot steel case (Wolf) ammo in thier guns. They complain of extraction problems from the bullet coatings and extractor failures.
7.62 x 39 is available, cheap, as non-corrosive(Wolf) and corrosive mil-surp types. Note too that there is also yugo 7.62x39 brass-cased ammo that is very accurate compared to steel cased Wolf,etc. It is considered corrosive but is very mildly corrosive being more modern than most other mil-surp types. The chrome barrell really will not matter that much with this caliber of ammo, whatever ammo you use.
5.45x39 is the cheapest yet and likely to be more accurate that the 7.62x39 at further distances. This is at the sacrifice of punch through (barrier) power. Most of the cheaper 5.45 ammo is corrosive, though.
Remember you need to feed whatever it is you decide to get.... I'm still voting for the Yugo, though. Good Luck

I have a solution for you. It's a little pricey until you factor in ammo.

Buy an AR lower ($55) from R-guns and a lower parts kit $60 or so...

Then go to Copes and order this:

http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?products_id=1020 Yes, it's $649, but you will have a VERY nice upper.

Viola, you have a 5.45 AR. Mine works great. I have put a few hundred rounds down the pipe. The corrosive ammo is pretty nasty but it wasn't too hard to clean the gun. $150 for 1260 rounds will ease your pain quickly.

Great thing about AR's is that you can play swaptronics with them. You can have a dozen uppers with one lower.

Mark

@rob-cubed & Bigdtc:
Thanks a lot for the input. I didn't really factor in the cost of ammo when making considerations. However, if in the end I did get an AR, would cheap non-Wolf ammo like Silver or Brown Bear work reliably?

@Markp:
I have considered such an upper, but when combined with the cost of shipping, lower, transfer fees, lower parts kit, and stock, the price balloons fairly quick. I've actually come across a STAG parts kit deal on AR15sales.com, and it seems pretty decent. It's not 5.45, but chances are if I get an AR I'll be getting a 22 conversion in the future, so ammo prices may not be as big a deal. My brother keeps reminding me that it has to be an AR to get his help so I may have to give in, at least until I can again afford another firearm.

I'm also trying to convince a friend to make his first purchase, and he seems to be leaning more towards the AK/VZ at this point. This thread has helped immensely for that, and I wanted to let you all know that I thank you for your help.