With what C&R rifle you often get caught violating with the ranges rules

SlowShooter · Aug 9, 2017

AlanInSilverSpring said:
If you can load a round can't you stick in an eci ? Wouldn't that be enough or does it have to go all the way through the cylinder ? Of course if the hammer was cocked it wouldn't matter if anything was in there or not.

I'm wondering because I just bought a Heritage Rough Rider that loads/unloads the same way. You can't stick anything clear thru any cylinder and it seems to me that putting something down the barrel doesn't clearly show that it isn't loaded and fireable, just that you now have a barrel obstruction. (How would someone know the chopstick went all the way into the cylinder ?).

So would the only way to clearly show the gun is inoperable/safe be to remove the cylinder ? Just like removing a mag ?

I never had a chance to play with a Heritage Rough Rider but it should be close to other revolvers in the firing mechanism. Cock the hammer and the cylinder is rotated to the next chamber... If you have a long chopstick, you can use it to measure the barrel and the cylinder from the outside then use your thumb and the index finger to hold and mark the length of the measurement on the stick. Put the stick in the barrel until your thumb hit the muzzle. That is how you be sure it is in all the way. This will lock the rotation of the cylinder and stop you from cocking the hammer.

With the Nagant revolver, by design, there is a big gap between the barrel and cylinder so I can see a portion of the chopstick there. in operation, when you cock the hammer, the cylinder will be moved forward to close the gap and insert the mouth of the cartridge (in that chamber) into the barrel before you can pull the trigger. This is the greatest feature of the gun. There is no gas leaking during firing.

Now I just find out that it is quite easy to remove the Nagant's cylinder (20 sec for removal/reinstall), so to save an argument, just remove it at the range. beside you can empty 20 rounds in less than 20 min so you have plenty of time to put it away before the next ceasefire. The Heritage Rough Rider could be done the same way.

AlanInSilverSpring · Aug 9, 2017

SlowShooter said:
I never had a chance to play with a Heritage Rough Rider but it should be close to other revolvers in the firing mechanism. Cock the hammer and the cylinder is rotated to the next chamber... If you have a long chopstick, you can use it to measure the barrel and the cylinder from the outside then use your thumb and the index finger to hold and mark the length of the measurement on the stick. Put the stick in the barrel until your thumb hit the muzzle. That is how you be sure it is in all the way. This will lock the rotation of the cylinder and stop you from cocking the hammer.

With the Nagant revolver, by design, there is a big gap between the barrel and cylinder so I can see a portion of the chopstick there. in operation, when you cock the hammer, the cylinder will be moved forward to close the gap and insert the mouth of the cartridge (in that chamber) into the barrel before you can pull the trigger. This is the greatest feature of the gun. There is no gas leaking during firing.

Now I just find out that it is quite easy to remove the Nagant's cylinder (20 sec for removal/reinstall), so to save an argument, just remove it at the range. beside you can empty 20 rounds in less than 20 min so you have plenty of time to put it away before the next ceasefire. The Heritage Rough Rider could be done the same way.

The cylinder moving back and forth is interesting. It's amazing what people come up with.

Yeah, if it becomes an issue the easiest thing to do would be to simply remove the Rough Rider cylinder. Once you do it a few times it takes, literally, just a couple seconds to remove.

SlowShooter · Aug 9, 2017

bbrown said:
Put an ECI in a freshly fired MG chamber and the flag will likely melt into the barrel.

If I had money to buy an M2, I would also have money to buy a custom built aluminum/copper ECI for that hotter than hell freshly fired MG chamber. Why they have excuses and I don't?

OLM-Medic · Aug 10, 2017

Usually it's at a range that has those dumb rapid fire rules.

With a semi auto AR you can be back on target and accurate almost instantly so its hard to remember rules at crap ranges like that.

noahhh · Aug 10, 2017

And they wonder why I prefer to shoot at the IWLA range of the chapter I belong to. Safety is taken seriously, but there aren't anal prima donnas playing RSO God. A much more laid back environment, and never a crowd.

Straightbolt · Aug 10, 2017

Why would you violate any range rules with any firearm C&R or not ?

Not sure where you shoot but most range rules are pretty straight forward and easy to comprehend :rolleyes:

SlowShooter · Aug 10, 2017

Straightbolt said:
Why would you violate any range rules with any firearm C&R or not ?

Not sure where you shoot but most range rules are pretty straight forward and easy to comprehend

It's not the rules. It's the C&R guns confusion and some time your "head".

- C&R guns confusion: this is what we are discussing here on this thread.

- "head" or state of mind: When your brain farts or you just get absentmindedness. I planed to have this on the following thread but...you already asked so I better bring it up here also.

I did some research on the issue. Why we keep forgetting little things at the range (absentmindedness)? The answers I have gotten so far are the followings:

1.) Physical condition: sickness, old age, exhaustion... in my case, exhaustion could be one of the culprits. I normally shoot 3 Hrs in one visit and I drop by the range every weekend or more.

2.) Preoccupation: concentrate/engross on target, shooting technique, testing new load while getting ready for the next target change, taking care of your companions/guests, arranging for next guns...and many more for other members.

3.) Distractions: People come and ask what you are shooting. When you try to be helpful and go through the gun history (C&R guns are all about) with them, you might already commit a small violation or two. When those added up, you become an evil ignorance member under their eyes and you must be punished... then more probation time. This could go on and on. You could sink deeper into the mud and can not get out.

I am not an idiot person so I have to find a solution for this rules violation issue. As we all have learned since the French Revolution, punishment alone will not resolve anything. Forgiveness and good rehab is what we need.

I JUST STEAL A LOAF OF BREAD FOR GOD SAKE! I DON'T DESERVE 20 YEAR HARD LABOR.

smoothebore · Aug 10, 2017

Absent Mindedness

Have you ever been to a Mountain Man Rendevous or other muzzleloading shoot? It's amazing how many times a shooter will step up to the shooting line to take his turn and ram a ball forgetting to pour the powder first.

Art3 · Aug 10, 2017

SlowShooter said:
It's not the rules. It's the C&R guns confusion and some time your "head".

- C&R guns confusion: this is what we are discussing here on this thread.

- "head" or state of mind: When your brain farts or you just get absentmindedness. I planed to have this on the following thread but...you already asked so I better bring it up here also.

I did some research on the issue. Why we keep forgetting little things at the range (absentmindedness)? The answers I have gotten so far are the followings:

1.) Physical condition: sick, old, exhausted... in my case, exhausted could be 1 of the culprits. I normally shoot 3 Hrs in one visit.

2.) Preoccupation: concentration on target, shooting technique, testing new load, getting ready for the next target change, taking care of your companions/guests, arranging for next guns...and many more for other members.

3.) Distractions: People come and ask what you are shooting. When you try to be helpful and go through the gun history (C&R guns are all about), you might already commit a small violation. When those added up, you become a devil under their eyes and you must be punished then more probation time. This could go on and you sink deeper in the mud and can not get out.

I am not a stupid guy so I have to find a solution for this rules violation issue. As we all have learned since the French Revolution, punishment alone will not resolve anything. Forgiveness and good rehab is what we need.

I JUST STEAL A LOAF OF BREAD FOR GOD SAKE! I DON'T DESERVE 20 YEAR HARD LABOR.

With all due respect, range safety violations can carry more immediately lethal ramifications than bread theft. If you were already on probation for leaving a loaded mag inserted during a cease fire, I wouldn't blame the RSO's for enhanced scrutiny of your firearms.

I will grant you that the Cease Fire Mantra is not as clear as it used to be. It wouldn't hurt for the new folks (or everyone) to hear it exactly the same, every time:

"Cease fire, cease fire. Make all firearms safe: actions open, magazines removed. Insert your empty chamber indicator and step off of the shooting pad"

I haven't been to the AGC nearly as much as I should have this summer, but lately it's seemed like some of the RSO's were just kinda winging it. Other than a discrepancy between the last part being, "off the pad" or "behind the white line," it had been called verbatim like that for as long as I've been a member. That's why it's as ingrained in my mind as The Pledge.

Maybe they need a cue card on the microphone :shrug:

EKing · Aug 10, 2017

Art3 said:
I will grant you that the Cease Fire Mantra is not as clear as it used to be. It wouldn't hurt for the new folks (or everyone) to hear it exactly the same, every time: ...lately it's seemed like some of the RSO's were just kinda winging it. Other than a discrepancy between the last part being, "off the pad" or "behind the white line," it had been called verbatim like that for as long as I've been a member. That's why it's as ingrained in my mind as The Pledge. Maybe they need a cue card on the microphone

We did recently (a few months ago) change the cease fire script. Our old script was good but some members were still confused. Some violations were blamed on the script because they said they believed that once "cease fire" was called, they were not allowed to touch their firearms so they simply placed their loaded firearms on the bench and stepped back. We changed it to "...unload, remove magazines..." to try to clear up any confusion.

SlowShooter · Aug 10, 2017

smoothebore said:
Have you ever been to a Mountain Man Rendevous or other muzzleloading shoot? It's amazing how many times a shooter will step up to the shooting line to take his turn and ram a ball forgetting to pour the powder first.

I don't shoot black power often, but this did happen to me one. Luckily the ball didn't go in too far and I was able to fish it out with a pair of long nose pliers. Later, I saw a special tool (a screw head for the cleaning rod) designed to pull lead balls out of barrels, I realized that I wasn't the only one. Sh#t happens! Everyone forget at times and I have no shame about it.

rbird7282 · Aug 10, 2017

Art3 said:
With all due respect, range safety violations can carry more immediately lethal ramifications than bread theft. If you were already on probation for leaving a loaded mag inserted during a cease fire, I wouldn't blame the RSO's for enhanced scrutiny of your firearms.

I will grant you that the Cease Fire Mantra is not as clear as it used to be. It wouldn't hurt for the new folks (or everyone) to hear it exactly the same, every time:

"Cease fire, cease fire. Make all firearms safe: actions open, magazines removed. Insert your empty chamber indicator and step off of the shooting pad"

I haven't been to the AGC nearly as much as I should have this summer, but lately it's seemed like some of the RSO's were just kinda winging it. Other than a discrepancy between the last part being, "off the pad" or "behind the white line," it had been called verbatim like that for as long as I've been a member. That's why it's as ingrained in my mind as The Pledge. Maybe they need a cue card on the microphone

I don't care for the discrepancy of the last part, I know it gets called differently depending on the RSO. I would rather they said "off the pad" every time. Not crazy about people roaming around on the pad even if they are behind the white line.

Art3 · Aug 10, 2017

EKing said:
We did recently (a few months ago) change the cease fire script. Our old script was good but some members were still confused. Some violations were blamed on the script because they said they believed that once "cease fire" was called, they were not allowed to touch their firearms so they simply placed their loaded firearms on the bench and stepped back. We changed it to "...unload, remove magazines..." to try to clear up any confusion.

Good grief :banghead:

You'd think something like that would be covered in the pre-badge orientation, and the script would just be a reminder :rolleyes:

Art3 · Aug 10, 2017

rbird7282 said:
I don't care for the discrepancy of the last part, I know it gets called differently depending on the RSO. I would rather they said "off the pad" every time. Not crazy about people roaming around on the pad even if they are behind the white line.

I agree

"off the pad" is easy enough for anyone to clearly see up and down the whole line.

SlowShooter · Aug 10, 2017

Art3 said:
With all due respect, range safety violations can carry more immediately lethal ramifications than bread theft. If you were already on probation for leaving a loaded mag inserted during a cease fire, I wouldn't blame the RSO's for enhanced scrutiny of your firearms.

I will grant you that the Cease Fire Mantra is not as clear as it used to be. It wouldn't hurt for the new folks (or everyone) to hear it exactly the same, every time:

"Cease fire, cease fire. Make all firearms safe: actions open, magazines removed. Insert your empty chamber indicator and step off of the shooting pad"

I haven't been to the AGC nearly as much as I should have this summer, but lately it's seemed like some of the RSO's were just kinda winging it. Other than a discrepancy between the last part being, "off the pad" or "behind the white line," it had been called verbatim like that for as long as I've been a member. That's why it's as ingrained in my mind as The Pledge. Maybe they need a cue card on the microphone

RSOs do a fine job in general. The warnings are clear but in a hurry or distracted, your mind fools you and makes you believe that you already did everything for safety. A split of a second later, you spot the mishap but it's already too late to corrected it. If your luck ran out, you would be caught. I have seen a lot of people committed violations at the range but didn't get caught and some got caught but forgiven because they have good connections I guess.

In my case, the committee gave me 6 months probation in January after 1 month out of action. In mid July, they summoned me for late May magazine incident. They waited a few more weeks to seize my badges and will keep them until Nov. 1st if I pass their interview in mid Oct. It must be a very hard decision for them to make. However, with heavy punishment, it tells me that Violations are on the rise.

Drmsparks · Aug 11, 2017

Art3 said:
I will grant you that the Cease Fire Mantra is not as clear as it used to be. It wouldn't hurt for the new folks (or everyone) to hear it exactly the same, every time:

"Cease fire, cease fire. Make all firearms safe: actions open, magazines removed. Insert your empty chamber indicator and step off of the shooting pad" so the RO can ensure the line is clear......

If there is a loaded mag after the line is called safe it's the RO's violation for not checking the line. That's why we leave the pad.

SlowShooter · Aug 11, 2017

Drmsparks said:
If there is a loaded mag after the line is called safe it's the RO's violation for not checking the line. That's why we leave the pad.

Couldn't be more logical. How Long do you think it will take 2 RSOs to go through 30 benches? (average # of 100 yards rifle shooters on weekend, This does not count people come in club shooting events. They normally watch their own groups.)

Drmsparks · Aug 12, 2017

how long does it take to walk 30 feet?

Straightbolt · Aug 12, 2017

Drmsparks said:
If there is a loaded mag after the line is called safe it's the RO's violation for not checking the line. That's why we leave the pad.

Whats wrong with a loaded mag sitting on the bench (out of the weapon) while line is called safe ?

SlowShooter · Aug 12, 2017

Drmsparks said:
how long does it take to walk 30 feet?[/Q

I love this guy. He could be my long lost twin brother.

With what C&R rifle you often get caught violating with the ranges rules

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