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Old January 10th, 2019, 08:16 AM #11
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Thanks again for doing this.

I'm a looooong time SIG guy (I lucked in to buying one as my first handgun 20 years ago and it stuck) and I've always wanted a P210. Lately I've been really curious about the new Target and how it compared, so this is really nice to see.
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Old January 10th, 2019, 12:29 PM #12
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I've got one, not Swiss, but it's everything else that it should be!
Agree with Combloc on the grips for sure, I hate the stock wood oversize target grips.
The grips are P210A specific and no one makes "regular" grips for it yet.
Anxiously awaiting to see some hit the market, soon I hope.
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Old January 10th, 2019, 01:44 PM #13
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Maybe if enough people ask Nill they'll do something. A nice set of walnut fishscale pattern ones with the Swiss cross in a classic P210 profile would look great on that gun.
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Old January 10th, 2019, 01:53 PM #14
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Good pics and comparison. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combloc View Post
I actually like machining marks. They give things a certain organic look and remind you that a human being employed his hands and put a lot of time into crafting this part all those years ago.
There was little/no human time put into crafting those particular machining marks. Slides tops were likely gang milled on a lever driven horizontal mill. They didn't even spend the effort to toss them in a vibratory polisher like the new ones. The marks are in the old one, not because human hands crafted it but because they didn't care they were using damaged cutters and 'pretty' wasn't one of the acceptance criteria. Its far more an indication of lazy/laissez-faire attitude than some romantic old-world craftsmanship. There are plenty of old guns that have fewer marks because someone cared (more).

That said, the marks are really are indicative of the intended end use of these pistols. They were originally meant to be used. Not as collector display pieces. The old and new versions were made for two distinctly different end users/purposes.

Some modern russian arms, like my IZH-35Ms, still exemplify the function over form mantra. The crude finishing does impart some charm but I fully acknowledge why its really there.
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Old January 10th, 2019, 10:22 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
It is one of my Three Great Gun Regrets that I didn't buy a Danish M/49 back when you could get them for around $1000. (The other two are passing on a factory refurb HK P7 for $600 and an honest-to-god Seventrees ASP with all the toys for $800.)
You'll hate me. I own a Swiss P210 (civilian, not military), a P7, and an ASP.
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Old January 10th, 2019, 11:05 PM #16
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THANKS!)
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Old January 11th, 2019, 12:11 AM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OTDP View Post
You'll hate me. I own a Swiss P210 (civilian, not military), a P7, and an ASP.
Please sweet baby Jesus tell me that you didn't buy the ASP from Valley Gun on Harford Road in Baltimore about ten years ago. That was "my" ASP they had in there and they had no idea what it was. They thought it was just an oddball S&W.

Is yours a Seventrees one, or one of the later Wisconsin ones?

And yes, I'm jelly of the collection.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 09:39 PM #18
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Next, we'll look at some comparisons shots of the frames.

One of the unique features the original 210 has is the ability to remove the entire hammer group as a unit just like on a Soviet TT33. With the pistol apart, you could simply lift the sear, hammer and hammer spring out as a unit for repair or replacement. The new 210 also has a unitized hammer group but it is held into the frame with a screw. Below is a picture showing this screw:

Notice that the Swiss pistol already has its hammer group removed. We'll see what it look like in an upcoming picture. I have not removed the new hammer group nor do I plan to as the only real reason to do so is if a art needs replacement.


Here are a couple views comparing the inside of the dust covers with the Swiss on the left:



Again we see that the new 210 is much better finished in this area.


A little bit better view showing the area in front of the triggers:



The US one is pretty much a study in perfection while the Swiss model is rough as a cob. However, the fact is none of this matters from a function point of view because nothing is going on here. On both pistols, the fit between the rails on the slide and frame is so precise that it feels like they are literally on roller bearings. I've handed quite a few pistols over the years and NONE have felt as smooth and precise with regard to slide movement as a P210. If you've never experienced one, you simply cannot understand how slick they are and words cannot convey the reality of it. It's what I like to call "NASA accurate." Rack the slide on a 210 and you are in love.


Here is a top view of the trigger on the Swiss:

Please excuse the fact that it looks a little gritty in there. What you are seeing are streaks and globs of Automatenfett (it's what the Swiss use to lubricate their firearms). Notice the slide stop retaining spring running along the left side of the frame. On this model, that spring runs underneath the slide stop axle. The trigger will not drop the hammer unless there is a magazine locked in place.


And here is a top view of the US trigger:

It looks similar but there is no magazine safety present so the the hammer can be dropped with the magazine removed. Again we see the slide stop retaining spring running along the left side of the frame but in this design, it rides on top of the axle. The grit seen is due to the fact that this pistol was not cleaned after its last trip to the range. OOPS!


Top of the Swiss hammer group:



And the top of the US hammer group:

While not absolutely identical, it should be clear that they are very close in design. I haven't torn them apart for comparison (nor do I plan to) but, other than the lack of a magazine safety on the new one, I'd venture a guess that they operate pretty much the same way. The take up on the US model is smoother and the let off is lighter but the Swiss pistol is no slouch. Both are stellar.


Comparison shots of the recoil spring assemblies:



Note the parts in the white on the Swiss assembly. Lots of the Swiss parts are in the white, including the barrel. I haven't noticed any parts in the white on the new one. These assemblies are not really supposed to be disassembled and, to be honest, I haven't tried to figure out how so we aren't gonna' do it! The US assembly is shorter because there is a shelf up inside the slide that the front of it presses against. On the Swiss pistol, the front of the recoil assembly rests against the front of the slide as is traditional on most pistols. Why they made this change, I do not know.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 10:59 PM #19
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Alrighty...this is the last post.

Let's look at the barrels. We'll start with the bottoms:

This is where the rear of the recoil assemblies rest and the slide stop pin passes through. Yep, they look very similar and pretty too! The new jobber is obviously based on the old jobber.



The breach with the Swiss on the left:

Again they look similar although the US on is squared off at the top. Hmmmm…...what's that eyebrow looking thingee sticking out at the top of the US barrel?


Side view:

Yeppers, look at the cam slot for the slide stop axle. Clearly the same design. HEY! Wait a minute! Where are the locking lugs on the US barrel?? What's going on here??



Let's take a closer look:

Did they forget to machine the locking lugs on the US one?? Nope. They lock up differently. The original SIG uses the Petter/Browning system wherein there are lugs machined on the barrel which lock into corresponding cut outs in the slide. The new P210 uses the SIG SAUER system which employs no such lugs. Instead, it uses the front and rear surfaces of the breach/chamber to lock into the front and rear of the ejection port. This system was first used on the SIG P220 back in 1975 and is still used to this day throughout the SIG SAUER lineup. This is the number one major departure from the original P210 design. Some guys seem to hate that they did this on the new 210. Pretty much every other part of the pistol is simply an evolution of the original design and they can't understand why the locking system was changed. So why did they do it? I don't know. May folks will have their opinion but it's nothing more than that really....their opinion. In the end, only SS knows for sure why they . I for one won't speculate. I will say that it works and it works spectacularly. If you want to buy a new P210, you're just going to have to accept that changes were made. If you don't want that, then go buy an old one. In my opinion, either will make you a very happy dude at the range.



Let's take a look at the inside of the slides.
Swiss showing the milled slots for the locking lugs on the barrel:

Again, ignore all the automatenfett smeared around in there. I really should have wiped that off first.


And American showing no locking surfaces but plenty of smooth goodness and perfection:



Just for fun, here are a couple pictures showing the new P210 barrel compared to an old 9mm P220 barrel from the 1970's:



There is absolutely no question that the new P210 uses the P220 locking design.


And here is a photo showing the inside of the US P210 slide on the left compared to a 1977 P220 slide on the right:

Notice that the wear marks on the 210 are even reminiscent of the contours seen in the early 220 slide. Very interesting!


Disassembled view of the old and new:

Notice the hammer unit removed from the frame of the Swiss pistol.


This last picture shows the true lineage of the new P210:

Just as is shown in the picture, the new P210 is not really a remake of the P210 nor is it a P220. Instead, it falls somewhere in between the two, clearly leaning toward the one but having a healthy dose of DNA from the other one too. In my experience, it is every bit the equal of both but yet distinctly different than either. If you ask me, the best way to get your head right with this pistol is to think of it as a P215.


Well, that's it. We're done. I hope this little essay is helpful to you guys in some small way. As was explained in the beginning, it's an attempt at a general comparison between the two. As I also said at the beginning, I prefer the Swiss P210 but I prefer it, not because it is better, but because it is Swiss made. Yes, it is a fine shooter but ultimately, I bought it because it is Swiss through and through. For me, it's that simple. If you are thinking of buying the new one in order to save money because what you really wanted was an original, do not buy this pistol. It's never, ever going to be an original P210 and you will be sorely disappointed. BUT, if you are thinking of buying the SIG SAUER P210 because you want an outstanding range pistol that is the very definition of Quality, gives you that priceless feeling of mechanical perfection every time you pick it up and will outshoot pretty much anything else you own; well this just might be the pistol for you. If that's what you are looking for, I really don't think you can go wrong with this pistol. Besides, if you eventually tire of it, I'd almost guarantee you will make money on it when you let it go. But I'd also almost guarantee that you would eventually regret letting it go too! Whatever you decide, I want to thank you for taking the time to read this and I hope all your range days are sunny, warm and fun!
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Old January 12th, 2019, 12:18 AM #20
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As always, awesome posts.

Regarding the extra locking lugs on the original P210: they might have been added as a safety feature. They was supposedly not even needed in the original M1911, but were added because of perceived sketchiness of the metallurgy of the time. In a cutaway you can see only the front and rear of the barrel hood making contact with the slide
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