MSP 77r e-portal goes live 1-1-17

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  • Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,392
    Darlington MD
    I know you're quoting the law as it is written. I'm looking for you to look outside the box. Since the MSP does the NICS, why aren't they holding the 4473?

    Thats the wrong question.

    The right question is "Why does MSP need to be the middleman for handgun nics checks?"
    (Beyond md having prohibitors that the feds dont)

    Wouldn't all those civilian employees fight crime better as analysts at the md gun center? Mgun only has 1 part time analyst.

    Wouldnt public safety be better served if thise troopers were investigating actual crimes and criminals rather than investigating 99.9% law abiding citizens.
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,392
    Darlington MD
    From kalister1:
    Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?


    Because the prohibitors for an HQL are different than the prohibitors for a 77R.

    Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?

    Because you could go out and do something in that 30 day period that could make you prohibited. Even after 15 years of buying handguns, you could get a PBJ for a crime of violence on your criminal history and voila...you're prohibited.

    Which is more stringent? The hql or 77r requirements?

    Doesnt linking fingerprints to the HQL make any arrests or charges show up instantly in your system?
     

    NoFro

    Member
    Aug 24, 2010
    52
    Queen Anne's County
    It still gets signed before delivery. So Feds should be OK.

    You answer similar questions on the 77r, and MD has nothing to do with the 4473, so they should be happy.

    And MD does not see/handle the 4473, so why does it matter when it gets filled out.

    4473 gets filled out before the background check so that the FFL can verify the identity and correct responses to the list of questions. If they aren't right, then no background check happens and the transaction stops. That wouldn't match ATF requirements if background check was done in advance.

    In the case of a denial, the FFL needs to hold a completed 4473 for 5 years. Good luck getting a customer to come in to fill out the form after getting denied, so it must be done in advance.

    I believe the ATF wants the form available because it is evidence that can be used in court if a baddie tries to buy a gun and/or lies on the paperwork to attempt to do so.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    Hold on a minute back at #599 .

    Maryland has multiple prohibitors not included with Federals, such as NICS or FFL apps.

    The W&C application involves a live Investagator interviewing relatives, neighbors, and coworkers , and could find some subjective reason not based upon any records.

    But it has always been explained to me the HQL checked the exact same 17 databases as for the 77r. The fingerprints were intended to " intimidate people by having to walk into a police station to be fingerprinted " ( Quote from multiple Dem lawmakers ). Of course shortly after 281 , the state switched to Livescan vendors, so even that flawed reasoning is now gone.
     

    StickShaker

    Active Member
    Mar 3, 2016
    888
    Montgomery
    From kalister1:
    Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?


    Because the prohibitors for an HQL are different than the prohibitors for a 77R.

    Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?

    Because you could go out and do something in that 30 day period that could make you prohibited. Even after 15 years of buying handguns, you could get a PBJ for a crime of violence on your criminal history and voila...you're prohibited.

    Would there be enough time for a 182 gun fire sale? :omg:
     

    kalister1

    R.I.P.
    May 16, 2008
    4,814
    Pasadena Maryland
    From kalister1:
    Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?


    Because the prohibitors for an HQL are different than the prohibitors for a 77R.

    Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?

    Because you could go out and do something in that 30 day period that could make you prohibited. Even after 15 years of buying handguns, you could get a PBJ for a crime of violence on your criminal history and voila...you're prohibited.

    You could "Go Out and do something" on your way to pick up the gun.
    MD law allows you to pick up the gun without ANY background check AT ALL if MSP drag their feet.
    Who approves the 77R before you walk out with the gun?
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,174
    Outside the Gates
    You could "Go Out and do something" on your way to pick up the gun.
    MD law allows you to pick up the gun without ANY background check AT ALL if MSP drag their feet.
    Who approves the 77R before you walk out with the gun?

    Stop being logical, it doesn't apply to MD gun law.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    4473 gets filled out before the background check so that the FFL can verify the identity and correct responses to the list of questions. If they aren't right, then no background check happens and the transaction stops. That wouldn't match ATF requirements if background check was done in advance.

    In the case of a denial, the FFL needs to hold a completed 4473 for 5 years. Good luck getting a customer to come in to fill out the form after getting denied, so it must be done in advance.

    I believe the ATF wants the form available because it is evidence that can be used in court if a baddie tries to buy a gun and/or lies on the paperwork to attempt to do so.

    You answer almost the same questions on the 77r. And if you answer wrong on the 4473, even after being Not Disapproved, the FFL will not transfer the firearm.

    The second reason does make some sense.

    But there are buyers, who are known to the FFL, that they know would come in if they needed to do a 4473 after the 77r, and were Disapproved.

    I am not saying that ALL buyers could do this, but that SOME buyers could do this.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    You could "Go Out and do something" on your way to pick up the gun.
    MD law allows you to pick up the gun without ANY background check AT ALL if MSP drag their feet.
    Who approves the 77R before you walk out with the gun?

    But then MSP will come to visit you to pick up the firearm. And possibly pick you up at the same time.
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    I think it's funny that the MSP has a way to apply for positions if you don't have internet access, but if you want to exercise your constitutional right, you need the internet.

    From their webpage:

    *Applicants without internet access may contact the Maryland State Police Recruitment and Selection Unit at 410-653-4348 for alternative instructions.
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,392
    Darlington MD
    HQL vs 77r: http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...on=4-101&ext=html&session=2017RS&tab=subject5

    It might, if this were an episode of Dexter, or CSI. I don't think it works like that in the real world.

    That link goes to criminal 4-101. HQL and 77r stuff is found in public safety. Mispaste or is there something im missing under criminal?

    When FSA2013 was passed, we were told that the fingerprint requirement was to make buyer physically appear at a barracks to be fingerprinted by a trooper, to dissuade strawbuyers. And that fingerprints could be done at any MSP barracks for minimal cost. Im quoting AG Frosh, as a senator, during his statements on the senate floor for the 3rd reader and final vote on the law.
    We all know that is not the case.

    I'm also assured, by someone that knows the system, that with the HQL being linked to the federal database via livescan, that if a HQL holder is fingerprinted in conjunction with an arrest anywhere in the country, the MSP HQL system is updated in nearly real time. You're saying this isnt the case? You've confirmed that with Smith and Amoroso?

    Then what legitimate purpose do the fingerprints serve? Beyond aded costs, database construction, certifications for LD, audit compliance expenses, and waste of time? What do they tell MSP beyond what a NICS check provides?
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Does this system do everything at 6am? It seems that everything I've experienced occurs at 6am.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Does this system do everything at 6am? It seems that everything I've experienced occurs at 6am.

    It's probably either just when the system is set up to timestamp things, or that some of the update processing is done by a batch job that runs at 6:00AM every day.
     

    Biggie313

    Molon Labe
    Feb 23, 2010
    1,223
    Essex
    Question. I just paid for a new handgun, it was a special order, and going to take a few days to come in, so we don't have the serial number yet. How far in the application do I do myself? I have an account, and filled everything out and am on the last page I believe "Sign & Submit Application". So far there was no spot to enter anything about the specific gun, besides that I was buying from a dealer. Do I submit now, or wait and submit at the shop?
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Submit now. When the firearm arrives at the dealer, you will go in to complete your 4473. At that time, the dealer will complete the rest of the application and your 7 day wait period starts. Remember to bring your application number and PIN with you when you go to the dealer.


    Congrats!
     

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