Tactical or defensive shotgun program for a gun club - opinions wanted

Greetings,

I probably could have put this under a couple other sub-forums (training/safety/competitive shooting/organizations), but decided to put it here because the unique thing is the shotgun.

Need your opinions, heres the situation:

A gun club here in Maryland has decided to add a tactical (or defensive) shotgun person/program to their lineup of archery, pistol, Class III, sporting clays, rifle, etc. They technical did this I'm guessing a couple years ago, but I don't recall it being very popular, and the seat has been vacant for many months now.

Question is what should a defensive shotgun program entail, what would you (as a member) like to learn/compete/do as a participant? Most of the club members are not super tactical folks, and it's a static outdoor range, and currently they only allow slugs; although this might be changed.

After doing some research and interviewing several more advanced shotgun folks at different club meeting; I'm generally thinking of doing this, what are your thoughts, concerns, opinions?:

Have a defensive shotgun 'clinic' where interested members can bring any shotgun that they would consider for defensive purposes (i.e. home defense), and encourage them to bring dummy rounds (snap caps) for that shotgun (we'll have some extras on hand).

In a classroom setting, do something like this for 1-2 hours:

#Discuss unique safety and utility issues of a shotgun (over penetration, muzzle blast, ricochet, limited capacity, limited range, recoil, etc.

#Briefly discuss the critical aspects of a tactical shotgun, such as shorter barrel, chokes, types of shot (slug, buck, bird, specialty), pump/auto, bead/rifle sights, types of stocks and popular gauges (.410, 28, 20, 12).

#Have the participants load and unload a variety of shotguns (other participants guns, and clubs guns); and discuss differences.

#Have participants learn and practice a quick manual of arms for their defensive shotgun, until they can do it faster than when they started.


On the range, do something like this for about an hour:

#One shooter at a time, loads and fires a single slug at a target at close range, then immediately, loads two more shells and fires them, then loads two more shells and fires them. Do this with all participants, generally time and score the targets.

#With four participants on the range at the same time, have each participant load and fire a single slug, then as soon as that shell goes off, have the next participant on the firing line do the same (load and fire a single shell), then the next participant, this repeats until all four participants have loaded and fired a single shell. Then the first shooter loads and fires two shells, this repeats down the line, then the next time around they load and shoot three shells, etc. This process of loading and shooting continues until each participant loads and shoots five shells.

#At 25 yards, from cruiser ready (tube loaded, safety off, breech unlocked chamber empty) have participants fire 5 shots within 10 seconds. Score hits. Anyone going over 10 seconds gets a 5 point penalty for every second over 10 seconds.

Accommodations made for anyone shooting a shotgun that can not hold the necessary 5 shells needed for these shooting events. How to accommodate for single or double barreled shotguns?

What do you think? Do you have a better event? Needs to be simple, and practical and have some element of competitiveness.

By the way, is there a definition of 'tactical' or 'defensive' shotgun?

thinking that having a bunch of folks loading and unloading and/or dry firing inside, albeit with snap caps, might result in some sort of ad/nd somehow or another. maybe save that for outside with all folks clearly having barrels pointing downrange.

set up a mini 3 gun course of fire, run one person at a time, perhaps thru a simulated hallway, bedrooms, etc.

Who advocates ever violating Rule 1? C'mon....

Yep, safety first.

Anyone have any other thoughts or suggestions?

If you have a chance, talk to Tim von Eiff . He put together a defensive shotgun class for several local hospitals and security guards. I believe he still teaches it. PM me if you want his information.

Independence said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezetgrpIEr0

Click to expand...

Good one, thanks.

I like how this guy teaches:

"slugs only" is a dealbreaker for a live fire portion of a shotgun class, too expensive and too much recoil. Even lengthy shotgun classes I've attended may have run 100+ bird/buck, and only a box or two of slugs. Instructing under a club can be fun, but usually frustrating, make sure you have your credentials and insurance lined up, and make sure it is clear what is your responsibility, and what is the club's. Dummy rounds are a requirement to learn loading, it's best to either make or buy a bunch of clearly marked dummy rounds, and either provide or sell them, even if you make it abundantly clear they are required students will show up without them. The best way to avoid someone showing up with insufficient equipment is a clear course layout and list of needed equipment in advance, like dummy rounds, having a few shell caddies for sale, or to loan to a student to work with will make life much easier.

Unless it's an advanced class, I would avoid getting into too much work with unfamiliar guns, best to have students work with their own at first. Being shotgun work tends to be load-shoot-load-move-load, obviously loading is where you will spend most of your attention, keep the drills simple, this is where birdshot and steel targets make like much easier, use slugs to teach how to switch loads, and longer range targets, use close range steel or static clays to teach how to load and keep the tube from running dry, or at least what to do if it does.

Are 'modern shotguns are not drop safe'?

This guy called Mossberg and they said ALL of their shotguns are drop safe. https://blog.hsoi.com/2011/02/01/mossberg-shotguns-and-drop-safety/

This thread seems to suggest most do not have drop safeties, but some do: http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showthread.php?402533-Shotgun-Drop-Safety-Question

These guys agree and suggest the most popular shotguns and rifles (hunting, non military) are not drop safe: https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/mossberg-500-drop-safe.46150/

This guy seems to be an authority on the subject and says they are safe if dropped, and Remington and Mossberg have thoroughly tested this: https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-most-modern-shotguns-arent-drop-safe

alucard0822 said:

"slugs only" is a dealbreaker for a live fire portion of a shotgun class, too expensive and too much recoil. Even lengthy shotgun classes I've attended may have run 100+ bird/buck, and only a box or two of slugs. Instructing under a club can be fun, but usually frustrating, make sure you have your credentials and insurance lined up, and make sure it is clear what is your responsibility, and what is the club's. Dummy rounds are a requirement to learn loading, it's best to either make or buy a bunch of clearly marked dummy rounds, and either provide or sell them, even if you make it abundantly clear they are required students will show up without them. The best way to avoid someone showing up with insufficient equipment is a clear course layout and list of needed equipment in advance, like dummy rounds, having a few shell caddies for sale, or to loan to a student to work with will make life much easier.

Unless it's an advanced class, I would avoid getting into too much work with unfamiliar guns, best to have students work with their own at first. Being shotgun work tends to be load-shoot-load-move-load, obviously loading is where you will spend most of your attention, keep the drills simple, this is where birdshot and steel targets make like much easier, use slugs to teach how to switch loads, and longer range targets, use close range steel or static clays to teach how to load and keep the tube from running dry, or at least what to do if it does.

Click to expand...

Great feedback, thank you.

- we are likely going to change the clubs rule to allow other than slugs, they implemented this rule because some careless shooters were peppering the beams and protective barriers with shot. I think this rule will be changed back soon, hopefully before we do our clinic.

- good point about the dummy shells, will be hyper vigilant about inspecting everyones guns and dummy shells, and have them routinely check one another. No live shells during the classroom/familiarization portion.

- its not going to be a 'class' or 'training' it will (hopefully) become a regular club event, and doing the orientation in the classroom will be optional for future events. This discussion is just planning and helping me formulate my recommendations for our exec committee; whatever we end up doing will have to be approved by the exec.

- at this range we can't shoot steel, only paper/cardboard targets. Also, might need to reestablish their shotgun pattern target so participants can see how their shotgun patterns with different shells at different distances.

- keeping it simple is paramount. Letting participants handle different types of shotguns I think is a helpful option, so they are familiar with differences; but focusing on using their own shotgun for the drills and shooting event.

- was thinking about making it pump only, to keep it even more simple, but I don't yet know what kind of shotguns most members have or want to use; I want it to be very membership friendly. To the point that if they only have a single or double barrel, they can still participate, but will be doing a lot more reloading.

- starting to think for the first event, we only do one shooting event, instead of the three I originally proposed. This will get more people through quicker. Now I'm thinking, on timer: load and fire 5 shells, time stops on last bang. Distance 7 yards. Too simple, not fun enough?

Minuteman said:

Great feedback, thank you.

- we are likely going to change the clubs rule to allow other than slugs, they implemented this rule because some careless shooters were peppering the beams and protective barriers with shot. I think this rule will be changed back soon, hopefully before we do our clinic.

- good point about the dummy shells, will be hyper vigilant about inspecting everyones guns and dummy shells, and have them routinely check one another. No live shells during the classroom/familiarization portion.

- its not going to be a 'class' or 'training' it will (hopefully) become a regular club event, and doing the orientation in the classroom will be optional for future events. This discussion is just planning and helping me formulate my recommendations for our exec committee; whatever we end up doing will have to be approved by the exec.

- at this range we can't shoot steel, only paper/cardboard targets. Also, might need to reestablish their shotgun pattern target so participants can see how their shotgun patterns with different shells at different distances.

- keeping it simple is paramount. Letting participants handle different types of shotguns I think is a helpful option, so they are familiar with differences; but focusing on using their own shotgun for the drills and shooting event.

- was thinking about making it pump only, to keep it even more simple, but I don't yet know what kind of shotguns most members have or want to use; I want it to be very membership friendly. To the point that if they only have a single or double barrel, they can still participate, but will be doing a lot more reloading.

- starting to think for the first event, we only do one shooting event, instead of the three I originally proposed. This will get more people through quicker. Now I'm thinking, on timer: load and fire 5 shells, time stops on last bang. Distance 7 yards. Too simple, not fun enough?

Click to expand...

If not steel, then clays on sticks, if they insist paper only, then index cards on sticks, replaced after every run. at close range the targets should be hit/not hit,and small, obviously paper/cardboard for slugs. It would be far better IMO to have different "divisions" than to tell someone their auto or coach gun must stay home, they do require different techniques, more a problem for instruction than a "club event". Set it up like a mini competition stage, L or C shaped berms give you more options for shooting on the move. Probably best to borrow the basic 3GN or USPSA shotgun rules, especially the 180 rule. Basically have a start position, group of clays/cards to engage, cover to move to and reload, 2nd set of targets, and maybe a buckshot/slug target at the start, or if you want to be devious, somewhere in the course forcing an ammo swap. Set up a couple "stages", time them, and watch the fun.

Something simple like this, fewer shots, maybe different furniture, and clays or cards instead of steel, but you get the idea. actual run is from 1:30-2:00

Good suggestions, but unfortunately this is a 'square' range, so its very limited. No moving, fixed positions for targets, must use paper/cardboard targets in fixed target stands. This range was essentially designed for bullseye shooting; they discussed the possibility of building a dedicated 'tactical' range, so they can safely do some moving and shooting, but as the cost estimates went up, the interest from the exec went down. Might still happen in the future, but will probably be a new range completely and not a modification of the existing square range with designated lanes. I have to work with what they have and their rules.

Why all the emphasis on loading?

In most HD scenarios, the shotgun will be loaded, and likely to not have to be reloaded. And most people will not have any extra ammo in their PJ pockets.

I would more concentrate on fast accurate first shot from ready position. And then follow up shots, and two target (separated laterally and distance) engagements.

Why 25 yards? HD is normally 7 yards or less.

I would do a Box O Truth and show actual penetration of dry wall.

Pinecone said:

Why all the emphasis on loading?

In most HD scenarios, the shotgun will be loaded, and likely to not have to be reloaded. And most people will not have any extra ammo in their PJ pockets.

I would more concentrate on fast accurate first shot from ready position. And then follow up shots, and two target (separated laterally and distance) engagements.

Why 25 yards? HD is normally 7 yards or less.

I would do a Box O Truth and show actual penetration of dry wall.

Click to expand...

You know what. You are right. I think because so many instructors stress reloading so much, I kinda felt that had to be part of it; but honestly, as long as they can load/unload, fairly quickly, that's good enough.

Close in shooting (7yards or less) is most important, but good to see that where to hold and that you can hit a target 25, 50, 75 or even 100 yards. But this is a lower priority.

Not sure if we can do the lateral targets or different distances; will have to discuss with some of the execs, but that would be ideal.

Unfortunately, Berwyn being a paper targets only, slugs only, no shoot on the move range, makes this kind of activity impossible.

The fixed targets are not to bad. Will they allow movement with fixed firing points?

But lateral and distance spacing, I mean one target at say 7 yards to the left of straight ahead, and the second one at 12 yards and 3 - 5 yards to the right of the first one. Depending on range, one could be higher or lower. Say one at kneeling height, the other at standing height.

Slugs are a pain. Paper only is not so great.

Best would be shot and steel targets.

And avoid this...

I most recommend pump shotguns, more reliable with a wider variety of shell options.

Good luck.

I was never a shotgun guy. Went to a pistol match one Sunday in the 90's where tactical shotgun was an option. Bought a used pawn shop Mossy, cut and squared the muzzle and was hooked. Been a member of that club ever since.

Instructionally, I would say you are building a good curriculum. We had some LEO's in the group and learned useful techniques that wasn't necessarily run and gun. As far as events goes, the shooting clays on holders using bird shot games are fun and could be a big draw. We used to have a regular 50/50 side shoot at every monthly match. It was done on a square range. It has since fallen off because of time and personnel. I am still a handgun guy but really do enjoy tactical or defensive shotgun shooting.

Having shot 3 gun, I will say the most competitive shooters are VERY proficient at reloading the shotgun - that's the match right there. Every pistol and rifle course shows and emphasizes good reloading technique. Why not in shotgun? Using that thought, why teach handgun or rifle reloading - one would only need 'a few shots'? Defensive shotguns typically have side saddles so reloading technique and skill would make perfect sense.

Good luck in this endeavor, it is a good one,