AR10, Who has one?

DaemonAssassin · Oct 8, 2018

A sub-MOA 30 AR-10 is within possible, with the right amount of work, during the build process. You just have to be willing to buy once, cry once on components, and build it properly.

clandestine · Oct 8, 2018

fbi_surveillance_van said:
I think there is probably some truth to the idea that accuracy issues with large frame ARs can be traced to the lack of parts compatibility akin to AR15s. That said I also think it can be attributed to a lack of QC from manufacturers and know how when they are assembled. Building an AR in any size properly requires a lot more work than is commonly thought by many gunsmiths and amateurs alike.

Personally I would go with a black hole weaponry or criterion barrel if I were working on a project that I was hoping to turn into a consistently sub MOA gas rifle just because I have good luck with them. Much higher end than that and I'd probably just start looking for a reputable gunsmith or builder and have them take care of it. I might luck out and manage to build something that accurate on my own with something mid tier, but once really expensive components get in the mix I'm going to have a non-amateur build it. Their fees can be high, but they are cheaper than irreparably jacking up an $800+ barrel or $500+ receiver set.

Okay let's be honest I'd probably bring Clandestine in on it from the start, and once he gets his FFL I'd probably just have him build me something if he were offering that service. Somehow I doubt the prospect of building $3k-$5k designer rifles is what gets him out of bed in the morning though.

I am at your service my friend.

dmable44 · Oct 8, 2018

I think I’m going to completely change the direction of this build. I want to make it a fun 200-600yd gun that’s pretty accurate, but not break the bank, sub MOA accurate.

With that being said, is a stainless “match” barrel necessary? Or will a regular chrome lined barrel work just fine?

clandestine · Oct 8, 2018

dmable44 said:
I think I’m going to completely change the direction of this build. I want to make it a fun 200-600yd gun that’s pretty accurate, but not break the bank, sub MOA accurate.

With that being said, is a stainless “match” barrel necessary? Or will a regular chrome lined barrel work just fine?

Same things I mention apply, but you can get by with a shorter barrel.

DaemonAssassin · Oct 9, 2018

dmable44 said:
I think I’m going to completely change the direction of this build. I want to make it a fun 200-600yd gun that’s pretty accurate, but not break the bank, sub MOA accurate.

With that being said, is a stainless “match” barrel necessary? Or will a regular chrome lined barrel work just fine?

Believe it or not, I built a AR-10 for a family friend that is sub-MOA with match ammo. It is even sub-MOA with the handloads I made for it for deer hunting. I was using AE 168gr SMK ammo that was optimized for the M1A. The handloads I was using were running 165gr SGK projectiles.

The kicker is that I was using a Aero Precision M5 upper/lower set with a Aero Precision nitrided BCG, a Aero M5 handguard (never again with the timing of the barrel nut...), a YHM Phantom flash hider/comp, a 16" KAK Value Line 308 barrel that was $125, and a G2S trigger. I'm not going to complain about the other issues that occurred because I found out where I was wrong on the handloads, by talking to Sierra, but the rifle runs flawlessly with factory ammo. Total cost of the rifle was around 1500, not sure if that price tag included the optic and mount or not, it has been a while since I looked at the spreadsheet.

clandestine said:
Same things I mention apply, but you can get by with a shorter barrel.

^^^^This man knows his stuff.

clandestine · Oct 9, 2018

DaemonAssassin said:
Believe it or not, I built a AR-10 for a family friend that is sub-MOA with match ammo. It is even sub-MOA with the handloads I made for it for deer hunting. I was using AE 168gr SMK ammo that was optimized for the M1A. The handloads I was using were running 165gr SGK projectiles.

The kicker is that I was using a Aero Precision M5 upper/lower set with a Aero Precision nitrided BCG, a Aero M5 handguard (never again with the timing of the barrel nut...), a YHM Phantom flash hider/comp, a 16" KAK Value Line 308 barrel that was $125, and a G2S trigger. I'm not going to complain about the other issues that occurred because I found out where I was wrong on the handloads, by talking to Sierra, but the rifle runs flawlessly with factory ammo. Total cost of the rifle was around 1500, not sure if that price tag included the optic and mount or not, it has been a while since I looked at the spreadsheet.

^^^^This man knows his stuff.

Thank you for the kind words my friend.

DaemonAssassin · Oct 9, 2018

clandestine said:
Thank you for the kind words my friend.

Rev. Chadwin of the First Universal Church of Eugene Stoner (founded 1956, reformed 1964) is always willing to guide the wayward souls towards the path of knowledge and enlightenment, for all things AR.

I tease, I tease.

At some point I have to fulfill a karma thingy you won. Plan somethign for next year when it gets warmer? No it won't be a bottle of Miltec, I've been clean for a few years now. :lol2:

dmable44 · Oct 9, 2018

Now my question is what’s a good barrel/BCG for a 2-600yd range gun? Doesn’t need to shoot sub MOA or have any fancy coatings.

Virgil Co.C · Oct 9, 2018

Have a bolt 308 and luv it. Didn’t build it but I bought Daniel Defense 308. Pricey but man it’s nice .think I could have went cheaper and do the same thing but I treated myself . I punch paper and hunt with it.for me it was hard switching from the bolt action. Well not hard /difficult just obviously different..have a scope on it with offset back up sights , bipod which I use sometime. Scope I will be upgrading when I get the money. Tried a Hawke scope to get something on it . It’s alright but plan on changing it out

lazarus · Oct 9, 2018

DaemonAssassin said:
Believe it or not, I built a AR-10 for a family friend that is sub-MOA with match ammo. It is even sub-MOA with the handloads I made for it for deer hunting. I was using AE 168gr SMK ammo that was optimized for the M1A. The handloads I was using were running 165gr SGK projectiles.

The kicker is that I was using a Aero Precision M5 upper/lower set with a Aero Precision nitrided BCG, a Aero M5 handguard (never again with the timing of the barrel nut...), a YHM Phantom flash hider/comp, a 16" KAK Value Line 308 barrel that was $125, and a G2S trigger. I'm not going to complain about the other issues that occurred because I found out where I was wrong on the handloads, by talking to Sierra, but the rifle runs flawlessly with factory ammo. Total cost of the rifle was around 1500, not sure if that price tag included the optic and mount or not, it has been a while since I looked at the spreadsheet.

^^^^This man knows his stuff.

What was so bad about timing the aero handguard? I was looking at them for my build. I have their upper and lower and a Brownell’s bolt (still need to check it over for gas key torque and of course need a barrel to confirm head space). No barrel picked out yet, but I’d like to find a fluted 18” HBAR.

DaemonAssassin · Oct 9, 2018

lazarus said:
What was so bad about timing the aero handguard? I was looking at them for my build. I have their upper and lower and a Brownell’s bolt (still need to check it over for gas key torque and of course need a barrel to confirm head space). No barrel picked out yet, but I’d like to find a fluted 18” HBAR.

The barrel nut has 4 slots for the gas tube to pass through. It also comes with a 5 pack of shims. I needed more than 5 shims to get it to time properly.

lazarus · Oct 9, 2018

DaemonAssassin said:
The barrel nut has 4 slots for the gas tube to pass through. It also comes with a 5 pack of shims. I needed more than 5 shims to get it to time properly.

Ugh. That stinks. One of my generic handguards is sort of that way. Barely was able to get it to time. Not a gas hole issue, but the handguard is cocked a tiny bit (one side is about .05” “long” and one side .05” short if that makes sense). Probably wouldn’t be an issue if I had a handguard front sight. But I don’t and run it scoped. But a little annoying if you look close.

But for a $35 ebay handguard...I won’t complain. Much.

DaemonAssassin · Oct 9, 2018

lazarus said:
Ugh. That stinks. One of my generic handguards is sort of that way. Barely was able to get it to time. Not a gas hole issue, but the handguard is cocked a tiny bit (one side is about .05” “long” and one side .05” short if that makes sense). Probably wouldn’t be an issue if I had a handguard front sight. But I don’t and run it scoped. But a little annoying if you look close.

But for a $35 ebay handguard...I won’t complain. Much.

I was on my phone with the previous post, so I couldn't find a pic, but I was able to find one with the computer.

opplanet-aero-precision-m5e1-handguard-barrel-nut-dpms-thread-plus-shims-aprh308910-main.jpg

opplanet-aero-precision-m5e1-handguard-barrel-nut-armalite-thread-plus-shims-black-aprh308911-main.jpg

I absolutely despise these kinds of barrel nuts, due to how few timing slots they have.

DarrellA · Oct 10, 2018

At the risk of exposing my ignorance here, I'll say that one can shoot sub MOA with an AR10. Unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible) the only thing holding me back from doing this repeatedly or improving, isn't the rifle, but my own lack of skill and consistency. This is with a purchased complete DPMS upper and an 80% lower.

3paul10 · Oct 10, 2018

I guess i dont get hung up on the whole "sub moa" thing. I have a Colt LE901....its accurate, and im no long distance shooter. It always goes boom, and its a Colt. Me happy.

Speed3 · Oct 10, 2018

DarrellA said:
At the risk of exposing my ignorance here, I'll say that one can shoot sub MOA with an AR10. Unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible) the only thing holding me back from doing this repeatedly or improving, isn't the rifle, but my own lack of skill and consistency. This is with a purchased complete DPMS upper and an 80% lower.

Not to knock your groupings at all, but some would argue that a 3 shot group is too small of a sample size to validate overall performance. Their thought process is to use a 5 shot group depending or purpose or application.

Some benchrest shooters will use an even longer sample 10-20 rounds to determine group sizing.

OSOK1776 · Oct 10, 2018

Speed3 said:
Not to knock your groupings at all, but some would argue that a 3 shot group is too small of a sample size to validate overall performance. Their thought process is to use a 5 shot group depending or purpose or application.

Some benchrest shooters will use an even longer sample 10-20 rounds to determine group sizing.

1 million percent agree. 5 shot group is a "standard minimum". 3 shots is more of a "wow i did great let me stop shooting before i get a flyer"

DarrellA · Oct 10, 2018

KrisM said:
1 million percent agree. 5 shot group is a "standard minimum". 3 shots is more of a "wow i did great let me stop shooting before i get a flyer"

Would a 4th or 5th shot "flyer" be more of an indication of the limitations of the rifle or of my abilities as a shooter?

Speed3 · Oct 10, 2018

DarrellA said:
Would a 4th or 5th shot "flyer" be more of an indication of the limitations of the rifle or of my abilities as a shooter?

That is the rub.... if the shooter isn't capable, you will never really know how well the rifle performs. In MOST cases the guy pulling the trigger is the limiting factor.

OSOK1776 · Oct 10, 2018

DarrellA said:
Would a 4th or 5th shot "flyer" be more of an indication of the limitations of the rifle or of my abilities as a shooter?

Its less of an indication of you as the shooter and more understanding what the standard deviation is. Statistically your going to be more accurate the larger your sample size is. That's all it means.

This is my process:

I shoot 4 groups of 5 shots each. I try to ensure that all of the ammo that I am "grouping" is from the same "lot". Same Box if factory and/or same reloading recipe if they are hand loads. If the groups look like this

1. 2 MOA due to a flyer and 3/4 MOA if i disregard the flyer
2. 1/2 MOA
3. 3/4 MOA
4. 1/2 MOA
5. 2 MOA due to a flyer and 1/2 MOA if i disregard the flyer

In the instance above if I was shooting them pretty quickly back to back I would look at the last group as probably an issue due to a hot barrel and IF the "flyer" in the 1st group was the 1st shot i would consider that an issue due to a cold barrel.

That said I would consider the average of those groups between 1/2 - 3/4 MOA and there is a flyer that could have been Wind gust, ammo variation, me pulling the trigger, hot barrel, cold barrel, or something else.

The net net is that there are so many reasons why flyers could be flyers. Only you as the shooter can estimate the reason for the flyer.

AR10, Who has one?

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