Ammo Question 38 Super +P

AlanInSilverSpring · Oct 4, 2017

Isn't this really just 357 magnum ?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/sig-...mj-elite-ball-ammunition-50rds-e38sub-50.html

HordesOfKailas · Oct 4, 2017

Art3 · Oct 4, 2017

Maybe in the way .357 Sig is. .38 super is a whole other animal than .38 special.

rifelman · Oct 4, 2017

AlanInSilverSpring said:
Isn't this really just 357 magnum ?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/sig-...mj-elite-ball-ammunition-50rds-e38sub-50.html

I think you are thinking about 38 special/ 357 mag. They are both rimmed ammo.
38 super is for semiautos like the Colt 1911. Its an upgrade from the even older colt 38 auto round from about 1900.

gwchem · Oct 4, 2017

No, .38 super is a totally different cartridge. More like 9mm +p++. It's not a rimmed case like .38spl.

alucard0822 · Oct 4, 2017

38 super automatic, basically a higher pressure version of the 38ACP. Actually pre-dates the 357mag by a few years. Pretty cool round, uses 9mm diameter bullets with a 23mm lomg semi-rimmed case, original load was 130gr@1300fps. I've pushed 124gr bullets to 1500fps. The rounds require a 45/10mm length action, but can offer 9mm capacity, can top 357 sig, especially with heavy bullets. Most factory loads are really light, basically 9mm velocities, most all brass is +P marked. Supposedly lots of blown up 38ACP pistols when it was first introduced, and part of the reason they added 1/8" to the length of 357mag to prevent the same issue in 38 revolvers.

AlanInSilverSpring · Oct 4, 2017

THANKS

so much to learn

davsco · Oct 4, 2017

"factory" 38 super is actually somewhat anemic, even the so-called +p varieties. the sig ammo you referenced is only doing 1230fps. 357mag in the same bullet weight is doing 1440. 357 sig is doing 1350.

the only really "hot" 38 super loads i've seen are what the uspsa open division shooters use, such as atlanta arms (1380fps) though most reload.

Biggfoot44 · Oct 5, 2017

CorBon does offer several JHP and DPX rounds loaded to full power levels .

photoracer · Oct 5, 2017

Don't forget 9x23mm, another version of 38 Super but with a different case dimension and taper but the same 23mm case length. Another primarily race gun caliber. Winchester factory loads run about 1450 FPS with a 124g Silvertip or JSP bullet.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Oct 5, 2017

Winchester loaded the 9x23 and Colt made a run of 1911's to shoot it. I'm guessing the guns are little more than odd collectibles now, as is the ammunition. I'm not aware of any other gunmaker who made pistols in that caliber.

It's nothing more than a footnote in gun history.

Pinecone · Oct 5, 2017

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
It's nothing more than a footnote in gun history.

I guess you haven't ever been to a USPSA match.

gwchem · Oct 5, 2017

Aren't most open shooters using 9mm major? I thought .38super was dying out.

somd_mustangs · Oct 6, 2017

Pinecone said:
I guess you haven't ever been to a USPSA match.

I think he's talking about the 9x23 Steyr, not the .38 Super.

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
Winchester loaded the 9x23 and Colt made a run of 1911's to shoot it. I'm guessing the guns are little more than odd collectibles now, as is the ammunition. I'm not aware of any other gunmaker who made pistols in that caliber.

It's nothing more than a footnote in gun history.

Is this the one you mean? I'd never even heard of it til I saw this on a dealer's website.

alucard0822 · Oct 6, 2017

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
Winchester loaded the 9x23 and Colt made a run of 1911's to shoot it. I'm guessing the guns are little more than odd collectibles now, as is the ammunition. I'm not aware of any other gunmaker who made pistols in that caliber.

It's nothing more than a footnote in gun history.

38 super had awesome ballistics, but early models headspaced on the tiny semi-rim, so they were horribly inaccurate. It was soon remedied by headspacing on the mouth like most other auto calibers, but never really got all that popular till the resurgence in competition. Then the only issue was feeding, 38 super comp just basically shaved the rim to make it rimless, 9x23 win was basically 9x23 comp with a 55,000psi SAAMI spec. Swapping to super comp usually just needed an extractor adjustment, 9x23 could be fired out of super barrels, but technically required a barrel swap to safely shoot full SAAMI pressure ammo. When technology and rules ended up allowing major power factor with standard 9x19 chamberings the 9x23 choices died quick. It's a shame too, being for other purposes it offers a flat shooting, moderate recoil, high capacity 3rd option for 10/45 frame pistols. The ballistics can offer 357 mag performance, but with capacity on par with 9mm pistols, the larger frames tend to fit big hands well. I still load and shoot mine regularly, would love more factory options in 9x23 pistols.

photoracer · Oct 6, 2017

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
Winchester loaded the 9x23 and Colt made a run of 1911's to shoot it. I'm guessing the guns are little more than odd collectibles now, as is the ammunition. I'm not aware of any other gunmaker who made pistols in that caliber.

It's nothing more than a footnote in gun history.

True. But the reason I had a gunsmith built me a 9x23mm STI back in 2010 was because I was already shooting an Israeli Bul M-5 IPSC L10 in 9x23mm. Also last year the Dan Wesson 9mm Guardian 1911 I bought came with an extra barrel, guiderod, recoil spring, and magazines for 9x23mm.
The good thing about 9 Major is the shorter case cycles slightly faster than 38 Super/9x23.
The bad thing is there is only a limited number of powder and bullet combos that can make 9 Major. You get a lot more flexibility when using the longer cased calibers. Also no one sells 9 Major ammo I think because its above the SAAMI table of pressure for 9mm. Likely no issue using that in an STI but it might not survive shooting in a Browning Hi-Power and anything lighter. I can buy Euro-spec 9mm NATO, which in this case is 161 PF (124g @ 1299 fps)(maybe SMG ammo) but I limit which guns I use it in and what recoil spring.

photoracer · Oct 6, 2017

9mm Steyr and 9mm Largo both use the longer case (22.86-23mm) but were designed earlier and can't handle the high pressure loads of the modern rounds. I understand that 9mm Largo will fire and maybe cycle in a 9x23 caliber gun, but the actual performance of the load is lower than the 9mm Parabellum (9x19). To make a lower performance 9x23mm load (9x19 equivalent) for my Bul M-5 I had to drop from Major PF of 175 (9g AC) to 125 (5.3g Unique) and drop the recoil spring from 12# to 9#

Pinecone · Oct 7, 2017

somd_mustangs said:
I think he's talking about the 9x23 Steyr, not the .38 Super.

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
Winchester loaded the 9x23 and Colt made a run of 1911's to shoot it. I'm guessing the guns are little more than odd collectibles now, as is the ammunition. I'm not aware of any other gunmaker who made pistols in that caliber.

It's nothing more than a footnote in gun history.

He only stated 9x23.

And 9x23 is shot by a lot of USPSA shooters.

Maybe 9x23 Steyr is not common.

somd_mustangs · Oct 7, 2017

My bad, because of that 1911 I confused the 9x23 Steyr with the modern 9x23 "Winchester" that is more commonly used.
Too many 9x23 variations

I'm familiar with the old stuff but not new (throw in a Bergmann-Bayard designation, etc to add to confusion)

As an aside the Colt 1911 in 9m/m Steyr is pretty rare, turns out 1000 made for the Italian market and another 100 or so sold in the US from leftovers.

Biggfoot44 · Oct 8, 2017

No love for 9mm Largo? ( Still anther 9x23 )

Ammo Question 38 Super +P

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