Critical defense vs critical duty

terp91 · Nov 21, 2015

RoadDawg said:
Critical Duty is NOT available in .380...

Critical Defense is...

http://www.hornady.com/store/380-Auto-90-gr-Critical-Defense/

Whoops, yup that's the one I meant. I got some of the American Gunner from Bass Pro and if ran fine through my LCP. Was reasonably accurate considering the sights on there, but after looking through the charts on lucky gunner I'm going to try and find some Gold Dots to compare with.

Armadillofz1 · Nov 21, 2015

Ender said:
Lucky Gunner did a pretty good test of a lot of commonly used 380, 9mm, and 45 acp.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Impressive resource.

Name Taken · Nov 22, 2015

I believe after watching many hours of Youtube that Critical Duty is better overall.

I also believe that 124+P Gold Dots, 147 HST's, and Winchester T-Series are the top 3 contenders and most everything else is in the good to bad range.

I like the 147 HST but finding it is hard so I opted for the 124+P Gold dots. When I find a good stash of HST's I'll switch out the GD's.

BMassBMore · Nov 22, 2015

IMO HST is the top choice among 9mm ammo. Watch the comprehensive testing done by Shootingthebull410 on YouTube under the 9mm Ammo Quest series. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oM2AJm9VhYM

I went a little overboard stocking up on HST. If you need a box or two PM me. I have 124+P, 147+P, and 147 std pressure.

smokey · Nov 22, 2015

it's important to keep in mind that the luckygunner source is using an m&p9c as the test gun. A 3.5" barrel is going to drop 9mm velocity over a full-sized gun like an m&p or g17. Lower velocity would result in fewer bullets expanding. For those that did expand, they wouldn't expand as much and they'd penetrate deeper. For instance, the critical defense bullets out of a full-sized gun are designed to stop at around 11" while expanding to around .6". In the luckygunner test they only expanded to .5", but went out to 13" because of the lower velocity.

Something else to consider is brassfetcher's tests through a bone simulant.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Bone Simulant/9mm Luger Bone Test.html
it really highlights the strengths of the all-copper barnes loads when pushed to proper velocity. The DPX is consistently one of the best performers, equalling the HST. It performs in a similar way, expanding into a star to allow the petals to cut a wider channel with less drag, as it allows tissue to pass between the petals.

AJRB · Nov 22, 2015

Name Taken said:
I believe after watching many hours of Youtube that Critical Duty is better overall.

I also believe that 124+P Gold Dots, 147 HST's, and Winchester T-Series are the top 3 contenders and most everything else is in the good to bad range.

I like the 147 HST but finding it is hard so I opted for the 124+P Gold dots. When I find a good stash of HST's I'll switch out the GD's.

It's hard to say which is "better overall", because it boils down to what gun it's being loaded into, and for what scenario. These rounds have 2 different purposes for 2 different barrel types.

When I carry my G19 it's loaded with critical defense for very close encounters (which the lighter recoil and under penetration are perfect for, you don't want to shoot through a bad guy and hit a good guy behind them), with a back up mag of +P, just in case after a close encounter I still need to take cover, and have the ability to penetrate barriers if needed.

When I carry my full size M&P it's loaded with +P with a back up mag of +P.

The main reason I go with the G19 as my edc, is that 90% of the time, if I have defend myself, it will be a very very close encounter. In that kind of scenario, out of that gun, the critical defense is my choice.

Blaster229 · Nov 22, 2015

Well, at least we know what round to use when we need to kill some gelatin. Let's throw a sternum in these blocks and see what happens.

Name Taken · Nov 22, 2015

AJRB said:
It's hard to say which is "better overall", because it boils down to what gun it's being loaded into, and for what scenario. These rounds have 2 different purposes for 2 different barrel types.

When I carry my G19 it's loaded with critical defense for very close encounters (which the lighter recoil and under penetration are perfect for, you don't want to shoot through a bad guy and hit a good guy behind them), with a back up mag of +P, just in case after a close encounter I still need to take cover, and have the ability to penetrate barriers if needed.

When I carry my full size M&P it's loaded with +P with a back up mag of +P.

The main reason I go with the G19 as my edc, is that 90% of the time, if I have defend myself, it will be a very very close encounter. In that kind of scenario, out of that gun, the critical defense is my choice.

You told me all I needed to know when you said you pack two magazines to reload and get better barrier penetration.

I carry a 3.8 inch barrel and the tests I've watched are out of 3.6-4.0 inch barrels.

And again...in most carry packages or at least what I would carry the HST, GD, and T-Series are the "best" performers.

I don't carry 5 inch barrels and haven't acquired a G43 or Bodyguard yet.

Sticking with the top 3 rounds is likely to be a safe bet.

If you found a round you are comfortable with and one that fits whatever made up criteria you think you'll face that's great. I'll stick with rounds used by the biggest LE department in the country and rounds that everyone who has done a FBI style gel test approves of.

Name Taken · Nov 22, 2015

Blaster229 said:
Well, at least we know what round to use when we need to kill some gelatin. Let's throw a sternum in these blocks and see what happens.

That is why you carry the Underwood ++P+-P*P rounds...In Gold Dot of course.

1900 LBS of muzzle energy.

Lets see your beefed up 9mm squeezed into a .40 case do that.

AJRB · Nov 22, 2015

Name Taken said:
You told me all I needed to know when you said you pack two magazines to reload and get better barrier penetration.

I carry a 3.8 inch barrel and the tests I've watched are out of 3.6-4.0 inch barrels.

And again...in most carry packages or at least what I would carry the HST, GD, and T-Series are the "best" performers.

I don't carry 5 inch barrels and haven't acquired a G43 or Bodyguard yet.

Sticking with the top 3 rounds is likely to be a safe bet.

If you found a round you are comfortable with and one that fits whatever made up criteria you think you'll face that's great. I'll stick with rounds used by the biggest LE department in the country and rounds that everyone who has done a FBI style gel test approves of.

I carry 1 back up mag with any pistol I carry, full size or compact.

I think it's cool that there is even an offering available and designed for a 3.8 inch barrel for optimal performance, outside of what the biggest PD's use.

Its not so much a made up criteria I think I will face or worry about, but I'm not an LEO, so I wouldn't be in the same situations as an LEO. So my thinking was, having an option outside of that use, that is more geared toward for my personal use cant be bad right?

My worry was more about over penetration of the +P round at super close range. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it?

Name Taken · Nov 22, 2015

AJRB said:
I carry 1 back up mag with any pistol I carry, full size or compact.

I think it's cool that there is even an offering available and designed for a 3.8 inch barrel for optimal performance, outside of what the biggest PD's use.

Its not so much a made up criteria I think I will face or worry about, but I'm not an LEO, so I wouldn't be in the same situations as an LEO. So my thinking was, having an option outside of that use, that is more geared toward for my personal use cant be bad right?

My worry was more about over penetration of the +P round at super close range. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it?

Most (I know hard to quantify that one) police shootings are within 10 feet and several folks who researched it claim with in 7 is more likely.

The handgun rounds I've seen that have actually penetrated a human body were FMJ and more or less "blopped" out of the body and dropped within a few feet of the struck human.

I'd guess that a properly expanding HP is going to carry even less energy after hitting it's target even in +P. +P is about a 10% increase. I'm not convinced 10% is going to turn that round into something that was going to stop inside a body and is now going to go through 1.5 bodies.

At the end of the day as long as you've researched it to the best of your abilities, understand what the round is likely to do or not do, and hit your target all the discussions are likely to be just that.

I don't think any department that stuck with 9mm is concerned with barrier penetration. So if they stuck with 9mm I'm guessing whatever round they picked they were happy of the ballistics against human targets in the open from 15 feet and closer.

Dave Greenberg · Nov 22, 2015

BMassBMore said:
IMO HST is the top choice among 9mm ammo. Watch the comprehensive testing done by Shootingthebull410 on YouTube under the 9mm Ammo Quest series. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oM2AJm9VhYM

I went a little overboard stocking up on HST. If you need a box or two PM me. I have 124+P, 147+P, and 147 std pressure.

You have 147 grain std pressure hsts??? Those are about as hard to find as the 147 grain Winchester Ranger T's. I never see those anymore. Just the +P's

Baccusboy · Nov 22, 2015

I have four boxes of the 9mm 147gr HST Standard pressure.

Bought five boxes four or five years ago.

J.T · Nov 22, 2015

Sgammo regularly has the hst 147+p

Baccusboy · Nov 22, 2015

J.T said:
Sgammo regularly has the hst 147+p

That is where I got mine.

Dave Greenberg · Nov 23, 2015

Baccusboy said:
I have four boxes of the 9mm 147gr HST Standard pressure.

Bought five boxes four or five years ago.

You should hold onto those. Try searching them online. They are always out of stock or Leo only.

alucard0822 · Nov 23, 2015

Dave Greenberg said:
You have 147 grain std pressure hsts??? Those are about as hard to find as the 147 grain Winchester Ranger T's. I never see those anymore. Just the +P's

Loved the standard pressure 147s, accurate with little blast and recoil, wouldn't have switched if LEO packaged HST didn't dry up, but can't justify the cost for civvie HST at $1.50 a rd when it is sitting next to $.50 a round LEO boxed critical duty. When looking for ammo, availability and cost has almost as much to do with deciding to carry it as "on-paper" performance, especially if you practice with it regularly(as anyone should). HSTs used to be all over the place in 50rd LEO boxes, even now I can find 180gr 40S&W for $25(and stocked up on it), but haven't seen a reliable supply of 9 in years, and their 20rd civvie boxed ammo selling for $30 is a dealbreaker to me.

Baccusboy · Dec 1, 2015

Dave Greenberg said:
You should hold onto those. Try searching them online. They are always out of stock or Leo only.

At the range, I like filling up all of my mags and pulling the trigger as quickly as possible on my 147gr HST's, and smiling at the lowly people shooting Tula.

Then, I make youtube videos of the old men fighting like rabid dogs over the brass.

Critical defense vs critical duty

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