brass selection and why?

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  • Moorvogi

    Firearm Advocate
    Dec 28, 2014
    855
    Most of the time, I don't give 2 rats ass about the brand of brass i use to reload. i only need to hit a groundhog out to 600 yards and so far i haven't hand a problem doing that with my loads.

    recently, I've decided to dig deeper into brass processing. covid shutdowns has it's positive sides i suppose right?

    without spending more money, i have a few choices of brass manufactures. If i were to be anal about the brass, what am i looking for?

    At the end of the day the end result is the desire for ammo that can hit a 6x18 target (or 18x6 depending on standing/laying down) at 600 yards. Beyond that is just bragging rights i suppose.

    Without getting into annealing or turning necks, what is there to look for in a piece of brass. The most I've done so far is size, trim then sort by weight. Selecting the brass that's within a couple grains of each other with the assumption they are "close enough for my needs".

    I use brand X in 22-250 and 300 win mag. I get mixed but still "good" results when i change brass manufactures.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    The better brands of brass are more uniform.

    Uniform wall thickness, which means more uniform case capacity. More uniform primer pockets and flash holes.

    The other side is, some brass is known for being usable for less reloads. Like Federal is typically known for the primer pockets getting loose.

    But if it works for you, it is good enough.

    If you want to see if it makes a difference, get 50 of a higher end brass, and try them out. Best would be if you do not know which case you are shooting for each shot.
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    If you're really anal about the brass, there's this thing called the lot number. I'll stop there, but I think you get the idea.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,242
    Mid-Merlind
    The better brands of brass are more uniform.

    Uniform wall thickness, which means more uniform case capacity. More uniform primer pockets and flash holes....
    This^^
    Generally, the European brands...Lapua, RWS, Norma (a little soft) have more uniform case walls/necks, drilled flash holes and reamed primer pockets. Commercial American made brass is often not concentric, the flash holes are punched, the primer pockets are swaged.

    Most of the case prep tools sold are to correct the deficiencies in commercial American - neck turners, primer pocket truing tools, flash hole reamers...

    Except for the neck wall thickness variations, much of the other stuff can be corrected with enough tools and labor.

    Weighing brass is a waste of time for anything except short-range benchrest, and a friend that set several 1k BR records has proved that to me.
    ...But if it works for you, it is good enough.
    True.

    It all depends on your requirements. I wouldn't use Remington for benchrest comps, but I wouldn't buy RWS or Lapua for a hunting rifle either.
    If you want to see if it makes a difference, get 50 of a higher end brass, and try them out. Best would be if you do not know which case you are shooting for each shot.

    Here, consider these 4 consecutive 3 shot test groups fired from a precision .260 with Remington brass. No neck turning, primer pocket or flash hole work, no weighing of cases.

    #1: 0.323" including the flier
    #2: 0.285"
    #3: 0.191"
    #4: 0.219"

    IMG00040sc.jpg
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,665
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Everybody is hitting on the same theme. That is, what does "victory" look like to you?

    As sweet as those groups are, if E. Shell was chasing consistent 1/8 inch groups, he might be paying a whole lot more attention to brass, and/or to any of a number of other things that he perhaps otherwise wouldn't.

    I always like to use golf as an analogy. There are one set of requirements for a golfer who today shoots 100, to be able to shoot 85. On the other hand, the difference between the requirements for today shooting 85, and being able to shoot 70 tomorrow? Those differences are a whole other world.

    There's great, there's good, and there's plenty good enough.

    Handloading, for as great a hobby as it is? It can make a man psychotic.
    It can leave a man sucking his thumb in a padded corner in the land of the white coats, given enough time and ample opportunity.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,242
    Mid-Merlind
    You have to have a 1/8th inch rifle to successfully chase 1/8th inch groups - most shooters don't, but still obsess over brass.
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    There was an interesting article in Handloader (Apr/May 2020) about the Loading the 8.15x46R by Terry Weiland. He talked about German Schützen competition, and how the Germans focused on the shooting and pretty much loaded a given rifle the same way, aka standardized load. Americans, on the other hand, went in the opposite direction. If you get the magazine, it is worth the read. I'm definitely not doing it justice. Let's just say that the folks going to Schützen competition weren't caring about their case capacity, neck tension, charge weights, and other variables. Their ammo for their rifle was the same, and their variable was how well they were able to do with that. You have to be able to do your part in order for the other stuff to matter.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    You have to have a 1/8th inch rifle AND AN 1/8TH INCH SHOOTER to successfully chase 1/8th inch groups - most shooters don't, but still obsess over brass.

    FTFY

    :lol2::lol2:

    I know you know this, but:

    In most sports, it is 90% the person and 10% the equipment.

    So it you make a 10% improvement in your equipment, your overall performance will increase by 1%.

    If you make the same 10% improvement in yourself, you get an overall 9% increase in performance.

    But most people spend 90% of their time, money, and effort on their equipment, and only 10% on improving themselves.
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    FTFY

    :lol2::lol2:

    I know you know this, but:

    In most sports, it is 90% the person and 10% the equipment.

    So it you make a 10% improvement in your equipment, your overall performance will increase by 1%.

    If you make the same 10% improvement in yourself, you get an overall 9% increase in performance.

    But most people spend 90% of their time, money, and effort on their equipment, and only 10% on improving themselves.

    There is certainly a point of diminishing return with equipment. You can't expect to take a $400 rifle and expect to finish top 3 in a fclass match. But if you're looking to shoot targets that are ~1 -1.5MOA(2MOA might be a realistic size) at 500 yards like the OP, probably doable.

    There are plenty of people that are way better shooters than me (Ed without a doubt!). Basically what Ed is saying is don't chase a rabbit down a hole looking for the utmost accuracy when its likely the equipment isn't capable of it.

    At the last match I shot, the round count changed a week before...I didn't have any fireformed brass (shooting 6x47L). I had no choice but to show up with virgin brass and shoot. I used that brass the last relay(windiest) and still did OK. But I picked up the wind shifts and let offs.

    To the OP...don't waste your time sorting brass by weight, similar weighted brass can have different "volume capacity" thus creating different pressures/speed. Besides spending money on top of the line brass (lapua, peterson, etc), try to use brass that comes from the same lot.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,154
    FTFY

    :lol2::lol2:

    I know you know this, but:

    In most sports, it is 90% the person and 10% the equipment.

    So it you make a 10% improvement in your equipment, your overall performance will increase by 1%.

    If you make the same 10% improvement in yourself, you get an overall 9% increase in performance.

    But most people spend 90% of their time, money, and effort on their equipment, and only 10% on improving themselves.

    It is so much easier to try and "buy" precision rather than spend the time and effort to develop skill. Of course they often have a lot of nice equipment for sale when they give up or get embarrassed when someone with skill but only average equipment out shoot them.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    It is so much easier to try and "buy" precision rather than spend the time and effort to develop skill. Of course they often have a lot of nice equipment for sale when they give up or get embarrassed when someone with skill but only average equipment out shoot them.

    When I shot a USPSA, I did a 3 day course with Ron Avery. I went from mid pack C Limited to winning B Limited. People noticed and asked why I was so much better. I told them. They asked how much. I told them, $450 plus about 1500 rounds fired. EVERY one said, "oh, that is expensive." Then followed with, "but let me show you the new XXX that I bought and will improve my shooting."

    And I had a friend who played a lot of tennis. He would drive people nuts by buying their old racquets and then beating them with their old equipment.
     

    K-43

    West of Morning Side
    Oct 20, 2010
    1,881
    PG
    So 6.5 Creed in Lapua brass on a Blue press won't make me a winner if I don't practice.
    Or, owning a Ferrari doesn't make you capable of winning at LeMans. Practicing driving skills does.
     

    Moorvogi

    Firearm Advocate
    Dec 28, 2014
    855
    If you're really anal about the brass, there's this thing called the lot number. I'll stop there, but I think you get the idea.

    I'm not really picky about it yet, just looking for more info.

    I suppose if someone ****s up a batch/lot they are all ****ed up just as much as they are all good from the same batch. One ASSUMES that to be true, but what is good/bad about them because they are from the same lot?

    My point is, being from the same lot number has been a rule of thumb, but WHY has it been a rule of thumb. Things change/evolve.. etc etc.
     

    Moorvogi

    Firearm Advocate
    Dec 28, 2014
    855
    FTFY

    :lol2::lol2:

    I know you know this, but:

    In most sports, it is 90% the person and 10% the equipment.

    So it you make a 10% improvement in your equipment, your overall performance will increase by 1%.

    If you make the same 10% improvement in yourself, you get an overall 9% increase in performance.

    But most people spend 90% of their time, money, and effort on their equipment, and only 10% on improving themselves.

    Project Appleseed taught me this humility. I thought "i can shoot". Then i went to the course and i learned how to shoot without sandbags or bipods but with just a sling. Shooting off a bag/bipod after the course made shooting almost a snooze fest though i still have a lot to "unlearn".

    One of my favorite days to the range was a guy scoffing at my ruger american predator in 22-250. said it was a piece of crap and if i wanted good groups i have to get an AI rifle and use factory match ammo. I pulled my load test target back which was all sub moa on a load development target. he scoffed again and left the range. sure, it's not a GREAT rifle but it gets the job done that i have for it. my POU.
     

    Moorvogi

    Firearm Advocate
    Dec 28, 2014
    855
    It is so much easier to try and "buy" precision rather than spend the time and effort to develop skill. Of course they often have a lot of nice equipment for sale when they give up or get embarrassed when someone with skill but only average equipment out shoot them.

    hahah yes. THIS.. over and over. It's priceless. But.. "the sun was in my eyes"
     

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