I learned to read the UPC bars. You can too.
Musings on Traveling with Firearms
- Thread starter MDFF2008
- Start date
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I learned to read the UPC bars. You can too.
Last September I came back from Vegas on United with a handgun. Unlike Dulles, when I checked in and declared the firearm, they put it in their system and it produced a reference number on the paperwork.I was given a copy. Never seen that before. A small sticker with a bar code was put on my bag that referenced that number. Simply reading that number would produce no real info. Now putting that number in their system would probably have produced the info that I had checked a handgun. I assume the baggage handlers have access to that system, so maybe a better way would have to be found.
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
No, just haven't checked the limits lately.
The link states $3400 per PASSENGER. When I was flying with firearms a lot, it was $1250 per PIECE (and there were not the stupid limits on number of checked bags, I regularly checked 3 or 4). And that was based on international transportation codes.
Also, the excess value is as I stated:
When I was traveling with firearms, the charge mentioned in the last sentence was $1 per $100 value, with a minimum charge of $10 ($1000 excess valuation). Looking further at the link you supplied, it is $40 for up to $4K and $50 for up to $5K value. But our shotguns, with cases, were worth about $2200 each. But we each checked one.
So the basic premise is the same. If your firearms and other luggage contents are worth more than the limit ($3400 it seems currently), then TELL THEM and pay the fee.
But if you have most common firearms, and it is lost or stolen, you are covered. They cannot say it was not checked, as you declared it at check in.
ericoak
don't drop Aboma on me
No, just haven't checked the limits lately.
The link states $3400 per PASSENGER. When I was flying with firearms a lot, it was $1250 per PIECE (and there were not the stupid limits on number of checked bags, I regularly checked 3 or 4). And that was based on international transportation codes.
Also, the excess value is as I stated:
When I was traveling with firearms, the charge mentioned in the last sentence was $1 per $100 value, with a minimum charge of $10 ($1000 excess valuation). Looking further at the link you supplied, it is $40 for up to $4K and $50 for up to $5K value. But our shotguns, with cases, were worth about $2200 each. But we each checked one.
So the basic premise is the same. If your firearms and other luggage contents are worth more than the limit ($3400 it seems currently), then TELL THEM and pay the fee.
But if you have most common firearms, and it is lost or stolen, you are covered. They cannot say it was not checked, as you declared it at check in.
Agreed.
I was just checking guns in at Delta BWI this morning when I read it and double checked to try to find anything about per piece of luggage but couldn't find it.
pilotguy
Ultimate Member
While I agree that there should not be any obvious marking on luggage, 27 C.F.R. § 478.31 Applies during commerce or sales of weapons, such as a manufacturer delivering to a dealer. Mail and packages are commonly shipped as luggage so it is possible that for some items this would apply but not for personal checked luggage.
Other countries are mixed on such labeling. Sweden, for example, puts a big green tag with a picture of a rifle on the outside of gun cases. Germany on the other hand does not label or mark cases.
Other countries are mixed on such labeling. Sweden, for example, puts a big green tag with a picture of a rifle on the outside of gun cases. Germany on the other hand does not label or mark cases.
BigSteve57
Ultimate Member
- Feb 14, 2011
- 3,245
So if this doesn't apply to the transport of firearms on aircraft as checked luggage then my question still stands: what law specifies that the airlines can not somehow mark your baggage as containing a firearm?
BTW, I had been looking at the Federal law regarding the carriage of firearms 49CFR 1540.111.
I disagree. The word luggage is usually and commonly applied to individual belongings, not freight or mail. And since it doesn't specify which, it certainly can include luggage used by poassengers. Where did you get your interpretation?
And if it doesn't apply, why do the airlines follow the stature for personal luggage?
BigSteve57
Ultimate Member
- Feb 14, 2011
- 3,245
So BATFE seems to be making the overarching interpretation.
I don't know how I missed this in the past but I just found this at "Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons":
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms...-unlicensed-persons#shipping-firearms-carrier
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
I don't know how I missed this in the past but I just found this at "Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons":
http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms...-unlicensed-persons#shipping-firearms-carrier
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
I was assuming the bag had a firearm in it for both legs. A bag drop won't work if you have to declare the gun.
So BATFE seems to be making the overarching interpretation.
Luggage means luggage. If the statute wanted to only include mail or freight, it would state such. Luggage could be a package, or a package luggage. Freight and mail are not mentioned in the BATFE FAQ. So I agree in's all inclusive as far as BATF is concered too.
Any other definition is conjecture IMO.
Weight restrictions on ammo vary by airline. Alaska Air allows 50 pounds. I assume because of hunters going to Alaska for big game.
Ammo weight restrictions are an airline policy, not a TSA or FAA policy.
ETA-and of course a FAQ is a FAQ, not the statute.
Ammo weight restrictions are an airline policy, not a TSA or FAA policy.
ETA-and of course a FAQ is a FAQ, not the statute.
pilotguy
Ultimate Member
The law in question that you posted is a law ONLY dealing with COMMERCE. If you aren't buying or selling it as part of the shipment then this specific law does not apply. I don't know how much clearer I can make it than that. You can't just pick the sub-section out and apply it anywhere.
Again, where do you get that? The relevant title is
If an airline isn't a common carrier, who is? And delivery is the operative word here. Delivery includes passenger luggage as far as I am concerned. And a comman carrier is engaged in commerce is it not?
Feel free to disagree .
If an airline isn't a common carrier, who is? And delivery is the operative word here. Delivery includes passenger luggage as far as I am concerned. And a comman carrier is engaged in commerce is it not?
Feel free to disagree .
pilotguy
Ultimate Member
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
pilotguy
Ultimate Member
For some reason you just don't seem to read the whole thing...
Yes, delivery by common carrier. An airline is a common carrier, true. BUT the section that deals with labeling is a sub-part of the COMMERCE section:
So buying a ticket on an airline and carrying a firearm in the luggage is not considered commerce?
OK sure.
What was the legislative intent by including the word luggage? Lots of carriers carry luggage, including airlines that carry luggage with firearms in them that the passenger paid the airlines to transport. That's commerce that includes a common carrier and a firearm.
Feel free to disagree. No big deal to me.
OK sure.
What was the legislative intent by including the word luggage? Lots of carriers carry luggage, including airlines that carry luggage with firearms in them that the passenger paid the airlines to transport. That's commerce that includes a common carrier and a firearm.
Feel free to disagree. No big deal to me.
pilotguy
Ultimate Member
For the transportation of a firearm that is correct. The commerce has to be within the authority of the ATF and they do not have the authority to regulate airline ticket commerce.
You sound just like a lot of my liberal co-workers--they are always trying to stretch laws to apply where they should not. I feel that we have too many laws already and should not try to apply them liberally.
Mail and packages shipped by USPS, UPS, etc. can be and are frequently shipped as luggage. Couriers are a good example where something is shipped as luggage of a person who is dealing with the commerce.
Thew last thing I would eve be accused of is liberalism. Feel free to interpret the law any way you like. I'll do the same. Prosecutors parse laws all the time. It's not a bad idea to try to interpret them in more than one way to protect yourself from prosecution.
The statute could easily be interpreted as I have. The fact that you think I parse the meaning doesn't make it less true.
Let's agree to disagree because I try to be literal;, not liberal.
The statute could easily be interpreted as I have. The fact that you think I parse the meaning doesn't make it less true.
Are airlines excluded in the statute? Don't see an exclusion. Luggage is carried by airlines too..
Let's agree to disagree because I try to be literal;, not liberal.
BigSteve57
Ultimate Member
- Feb 14, 2011
- 3,245
18 U.S. Code § 922 e - Unlawful acts?
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
