Ammo Jon
Ultimate Member
- Mar 3, 2008
- 20,975
In that scenario I would retreat. I’m not an operator nor claim to be. If the threat was next to me I would take it out otherwise my role is to protect myself and my family.
How much training do you ACTUALLY need?
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In that scenario I would retreat. I’m not an operator nor claim to be. If the threat was next to me I would take it out otherwise my role is to protect myself and my family.
TheOriginalMexicanBob
Ultimate Member
Training is important. As, or more precisely, how seriously you take your training is as or more important. If you simply play good guy vs. bad guy like kids play that's how you'll respond under stress. Get competent training and then practice. Concentrate on the basics and not gadgets. Gadgets have their place but they don't replace knowing the basics of safety, situational awareness, fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control. Targets must be identified...knowledge of basic tactics, cover and concealment (if possible), when to retreat or stand your ground, etc.
You can do everything right and still die. Competent instruction and practice helps to stack the odds in your favor but is no guarantee of success. Don't fight fair...if possible and overmatch on your part is the way to go. As Bill Jordan said...there's no second place winner in a gun fight.
You can do everything right and still die. Competent instruction and practice helps to stack the odds in your favor but is no guarantee of success. Don't fight fair...if possible and overmatch on your part is the way to go. As Bill Jordan said...there's no second place winner in a gun fight.
Boats
Broken Member
Rules of engagement, in this case the legality of a shoot, is a part of situational awareness. Just as much as knowing what is behind your target, not just target picture.
I pray for you and your family should you ever have to defend yourself. Your myopic view could destroy more than just your life. The difference between a trigger puller and an operator isn't knowing when to shoot, it's when it is tactically adventageous not to. (That and the beard)
Hence my previous post
This (condensed, just here) post by Blaster has the strong ring of truth. Yeah, I should practice more with things like heart-rate-up-weak-hand-only shooting. But mostly, my gut tells me that the biggest thing facing me is on the fly analysis paralysis in a public setting, where absolutely any and every conceivable real-world situation that would ever, ever actually have me pull out a gun is guaranteed to not resemble - in any way - any sort of class situation a normal busy working person is likely to meaningfully simulate and train for.
I've had multiple defensive (or at least hackles-up, radar-on-high) encounters with prospective assailants in my years, where my large frame and resting bitch face added up to a quick wrap-up of what probably weren't going to be life or death situations. Even those comparatively simple situations seemed, at the time and even more so on reflection, to be pure chaos and utterly non-compliant with expectations about how such a situation would play out. My sense is that a situation dire enough to draw on would be that times a thousand. And that my gun handling and marksmanship at likely distances won't be unimportant, but will be among the least of my concerns.
hogarth
Ultimate Member
- Jun 13, 2009
- 2,504
Blaster, great post (the one with the photo). Exactly what we all need more of. The THINKING part of "the game".
As far as setting up VERY realistic scenarios to game this stuff, the best venue for this was probably the National Tactical Invitational, but it does not exist anymore. Those who I know who went through it said there was nothing else like it, and many well-thought-of instructors and competitive shooters failed MISERABLY going through the scenarios (and many of them refused to return!). Picture a mission of going to the grocery store and having upwards of 30 role players each of whom has had specific instructions (like a decision tree, so what you do determines what they do which in turn influences what you do, etc.), and you having to negotiate your way though it all. Sort of like a live-action FATS. You might shoot 10 people or never even draw. There will be a presentation at this year's TacCon in March about the lessons from NTI.
Other schools like MDFI, Sage Dynamics, and others, dabble in force-on-force, scenario-based training, but such courses are not nearly as common as standing in lines and shooting at bullseyes, practicing reloads and malfunctions, etc.
As far as setting up VERY realistic scenarios to game this stuff, the best venue for this was probably the National Tactical Invitational, but it does not exist anymore. Those who I know who went through it said there was nothing else like it, and many well-thought-of instructors and competitive shooters failed MISERABLY going through the scenarios (and many of them refused to return!). Picture a mission of going to the grocery store and having upwards of 30 role players each of whom has had specific instructions (like a decision tree, so what you do determines what they do which in turn influences what you do, etc.), and you having to negotiate your way though it all. Sort of like a live-action FATS. You might shoot 10 people or never even draw. There will be a presentation at this year's TacCon in March about the lessons from NTI.
Other schools like MDFI, Sage Dynamics, and others, dabble in force-on-force, scenario-based training, but such courses are not nearly as common as standing in lines and shooting at bullseyes, practicing reloads and malfunctions, etc.
CrazySanMan
2013'er
I agree with the situational awareness posts. I don't really plan to use my carry gun against a target on the other side of a shopping mall or across a parking lot. If it's beyond 5-7 yards my plan is to either move to a better position for a shot, escape the area, or watch everything closely and try to take photos or video to become a witness for the court date later. That's why I only keep a J frame in my vehicle. If I'm in my vehicle I'll simply drive away instead of pulling out a takedown AR and engaging people at 200 yards.
clandestine
AR-15 Savant
Don't want or need your prayers, nor do I want people like you on my jury. Your kind is fine with killing children but wants to burn people like me at the stake for using a gun in defense.
There won't be any engagement if an attacker does not make me fear my life or those in my charge.
That's a solid legal standard, regardless of what the run away crowd preaches.
I think you're right. Marksmanship is important, sure. But in the majority of self defense scenarios, marksmanship isn't the concern. Anyone who spends a little time at the range can effectively put three rounds on target at <7 yards.
Situational awareness, the ability to avoid the fight to begin with, knowing the rules of engagement, when and how to use your firearm in a defensive situation seems the real failure point. Sure, I'm heading to the range this week to run through dot torture and then Mozambique drills with both of my carry guns. But that's not the most important training I should do.
Boats
Broken Member
Much like the rest of your posts, you are wrong.
I can't speak for my "kind" whatever that is. But I am not ok with killing children, and I don't want you burned at the stake, not even a little bit.
That said, I hope you don't escalate an armed confrontation the same way you escalate an internet one. At this point im pretty sure a stiff fart will make you "fear for your life".
Stop being a victim.
CrazySanMan
2013'er
You can't defend your family if you are dead because you didn't fight back. You can't defend them from future threats if you are in a jail cell either. And you can't defend them if the bankruptcy court judge forces you to sell all your weapons because you lost a million dollar wrongful death civil court case.
Each situation is different and you must make a split second decision under duress if your situation requires fight or flight. It's got to be one or the other, I don't believe there is a situation where both would be acceptable in today's society and especially in Maryland.
Each situation is different and you must make a split second decision under duress if your situation requires fight or flight. It's got to be one or the other, I don't believe there is a situation where both would be acceptable in today's society and especially in Maryland.
clandestine
AR-15 Savant
Someone got his/her feels hurt. LMAO.
Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out! Yeeehaaaaaw.
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clandestine
AR-15 Savant
Careful now. You don't want to associate with someone who believes in self defense.
Ammo Jon
Ultimate Member
- Mar 3, 2008
- 20,975
I’m curious what you would do in a similar situation.
I think I pretty much explained everything to the Nth degree in my long winded example post with picture. Did you read it?
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Ammo Jon
Ultimate Member
- Mar 3, 2008
- 20,975
I did, didn’t see you mention a theater with 300 people.
That's an example of a scenario while out in public, carrying.
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Boats
Broken Member
Don't flatter yourself. I pity you
