Family With Double-Action Trigger-Pull Problems

clandestine · Jul 26, 2014

IMO a Self Defense gun that can only be fired by one user is a bad idea. If these guns don't serve that capacity then I understand, but otherwise get rid of them and get something everyone can manipulate. You never know when a gun will be called for use.

Boom Boom · Jul 26, 2014

clandestine said:
IMO a Self Defense gun that can only be fired by one user is a bad idea. If these guns don't serve that capacity then I understand, but otherwise get rid of them and get something everyone can manipulate. You never know when a gun will be called for use.

I cannot agree more. Beyond that, such a gun poses a mortal danger for the defender if he/she loses possession in a life/death struggle immediately after being unable to fire it.

Bolts Rock · Jul 27, 2014

I've never had a problem but maybe it was all those crappy trigger caps guns I had as a kid. Dry fire drills should help.

Mark K · Jul 27, 2014

Bolts Rock said:
Dry fire drills should help.

Yeah. Hmmm... or maybe it's partly psychological...

I just sat down on the couch with my wife, the Beretta, the Sig, and a couple Snap Caps.

With the pad of her finger on the trigger (inside knuckle of her index finger on the edge of the trigger), she was able to pull the trigger DA without much problem -- she said it was much easier with the Beretta than the Sig. (I don't notice much difference.)

She did say that if her finger started slipping from position on the trigger (like sweat), it immediately got harder.

So drills and more shooting...

Wife is the only family member still at home, so that's good. But I'll need to work with our daughter when she gets home from UMD...

Blaster229 · Jul 27, 2014

Finger sweat?? :/

Mark K · Jul 27, 2014

Blaster229 said:
Finger sweat?? :/

Sorry. Finger glow.

RoadDawg · Jul 28, 2014

I noticed that you do not have this difficulty... yet your wife and children do.

That bit of information caused me to wonder if you are not in the same situation as I was years ago when it was discovered that my family (wife and children) also had some difficulty with these issues of the hands.

It was then discovered that a hereditary nerve condition known as CMT was the culprit.
The "long thin fingers" and the problem with pulling the trigger... suggests that you may want to talk to your family Doctor.

Later in the disease, weakness and muscle atrophy may occur in the hands, resulting in difficulty with carrying out fine motor skills (the coordination of small movements usually in the fingers, hands, wrists, feet, and tongue).

This condition effects about 1 in every 2500 people. Some are very mildly effected (my wife and son) and it can range into the serious end of things (my daughter required several surgeries, she now lives a normal life). In the mild end of the spectrum, few people will even know it is there. Once we discovered the condition in my daughters case, her brother, mother and maternal grandfather were tested and found to also have it. (There is a test that determines the existence of the condition.) it is hereditary and easily missed in most cases.

I'm not trying to worry or scare you... Merely offering information as to a possible reason for the issues that are effecting your family.

CMT: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/charcot_marie_tooth/detail_charcot_marie_tooth.htm

Blaster229 · Jul 28, 2014

Take a small piece of that "rock" grip tape/ "skateboard tape and wrap it around/on the trigger. This might allow some grip during practice.

rob-cubed · Jul 28, 2014

My hands are a little small to comfortably operate all the controls on a SIG, until they came out with their newer, contoured frame. I could still DA no problem, but that and the Beretta both have what I'd consider bigger grips for small hands. My buddy has large hands and the opposite issue, his finger is in a crook even before starting to pull. Either might be part of the culprit.

Agreed with others, check their grip and make sure it's up to snuff. Something sounds off, those triggers aren't that heavy.

It's not a perfect solution, but manually cocking the hammer first turns it into a lighter pull. It's what I have my daughter do until she's strong enough to DA reliably.

Striker-fired is the way to go for lots of reasons. Fumbling with safeties is problematic in a high-stress situation. A Glock should be in your near future.

Mark K · Jul 28, 2014

rob-cubed said:
Striker-fired is the way to go for lots of reasons. Fumbling with safeties is problematic in a high-stress situation. A Glock should be in your near future.

Well, like I said, my agency uses (OK, used) the M9 for deployments, and currently uses the M11. That's why I own a 92 and an P229/M11A1. (The PPK/S? It was just one of my first loves, and I plan on using it for concealed carry if... you know...)

I agree about safeties -- I never use one, and don't teach my family members to use one.

I think my wife is getting the DA thing down.

Daughter doesn't live at home any more, and I'm still working with her.

Son is in the Air Force, so the only thing he'd ever be issued is an M9 (or M4/M16). But in any case he finally figured out the DA thing too.

BigDaddy · Jul 28, 2014

RoadDawg said:
It was then discovered that a hereditary nerve condition known as CMT was the culprit.
The "long thin fingers" and the problem with pulling the trigger... suggests that you may want to talk to your family Doctor.

This condition effects about 1 in every 2500 people.

Congratulations for thinking outside the box. I have no idea if the OP's family has it or not.

As an anesthesiologist, I took care of somewhere around 25,000 patients and I doubt if more than 2 patients had that diagnosis, maybe only 1. That doesn't mean I doubt your incidence of the disease, it means, in medicine, a lot of things are undiagnosed or unknown. Maybe another 8 patients had it.

Biggfoot44 · Jul 29, 2014

The PPK/s is what it is . The SIG has a nice DA. While there are other reasons I'm not M92 Berretta fan , the DA is decent.

Unless there is actual medical issues , the underlieing problem is finger/ hand strength. If the people involved wanted to , they would have major improvement within a week , and be withing the range of more or less average shooters. But if they don't want to take 5min a day to do so , you can't make them.

As to persuing a workaround , I totally cring at the thought of using wrong/ multiple fingers to manipulate a trigger. I would recoment thumbing back the hammer long before I could contence wrong/ multiple fingers.

Or aquire an additional handgun of (lighter) striker , or SA configuration for a one type fits all SD gun.

Biggfoot44 · Jul 29, 2014

I can't edit on 'blueberry. Meant to say : major improvement in one week , into average range in a couple more weeks.

Dogabutila · Jul 29, 2014

I can pull the trigger DA on a m92 / sig. My hands are so small that I can BARELY reach the frame safety on the m92. In fact, more often then not I can't flip it all the way. So, given that technically it's too big for me to use properly but I can still pull the trigger just fine, I think it's more of a finger strength issue.

Biggfoot44 · Jul 29, 2014

During the *Wonder Nine* era , many of the widely issued/ highly popular pistols were too large for a substantial % if not majority of the public. ( Ie : even for thise who could more or less shoot them , a lot of shifting in the hand was needed for at least some of the controls.)

Dogabutila · Jul 29, 2014

I rather like the idea of the frame mounted safeties that Taurus made. And I know Taurus makes the PT92 better than they make any of their other stuff, but I'm still leery on it.

00 Del · Aug 11, 2014

Ya'll know you don't really go blind if you masturbate, right? Most people will engage in some type of activity that will build up their grip (football, wrestling, bowling, needlepoint, etc.), but barring that find yourself a shovel handle. Bore a hole in the handle and put a piece of 550 cord through it. On the other end put a toggle large enough to hold an Olympic weight. Procure an Olympic weight starting at 2.5 lbs, and put it on the toggle side of the cord. With your thumb and index finger ONLY turn the shovel handle until the weight is "reeled in," repeat 47 times per day. When you can complete the task, go up the next larger plate.

You'll all look like Popeye in no time.

Mark K · Aug 22, 2014

Several people have mentioned problems with safeties.

Not a problem here. Every bit of DoD agency training I've had stressed to carry a handgun hammer down, with a round in the chamber if in Condition Red, but not to keep it on safe. Too much fine-motor skill needed to take the safety off when the adrenaline hits. That's how I've always carried on deployments, and I've trained my family not to use the safety either...

Threeband · Aug 22, 2014

Biggfoot44 said:
During the *Wonder Nine* era , many of the widely issued/ highly popular pistols were too large for a substantial % if not majority of the public. ( Ie : even for thise who could more or less shoot them , a lot of shifting in the hand was needed for at least some of the controls.)

A lot of those Wonder Nines are still around, and still have grips and trigger reach problems for a lot of people.

Many people, including myself, simple cannot get good finger placement on the trigger AND get the barrel in line with the forearm. They are forced (often without realizing it) to twist the gun slightly in the hand. This causes the gun to twist slightly under recoil, which plays havoc with rapid follow-up shots and controlled pairs.

That's why I stick to my M&Ps, and have no interest in the SIGs and Berettas (which are two of the 1980s Wonder Nines).

I honestly believe many people have this problem without even realizing it, because they just naturally twist the gun to the side when they grip it, and don't even realize that they are handicapping themselves with an ill-fitting pistol.

For that reason, I think the M9 was a poor choice for a general issue sidearm. The Army showed a much deeper understanding of these ergonomic issues back in the 1920s, when the 1911A1 was adopted. The changes made to the old 1911 specifically addressed the problems many people have in achieving an optimal grip. The short trigger and the scalloped frame of the 1911A1 were introduced for that very reason.

awptickes · Aug 25, 2014

After I broke my index finger as a seven year old, I could never pull a trigger, even on a BB gun until I was about 12-13. I used to use my middle finder because my index finger hurt so badly when I'd pull the trigger on something, even a shotgun. The shooting instructor at boy scout camp gave me a racquetball (or maybe it was squash) and told me to squeeze it with just my index finger until I could smash the ball with just that finger in my hand. After about three days I was able to do it without any problems.

After I picked up playing guitar and using a couple "GripMaster" exerciser things mentioned above. That's probably a better option.

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