9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO

Phil I Am said:

I need an ammo for ****wits thread. �� I don’t understand +p. I know it has a higher pressure than non +p ammo. What pressure are they talking about? I am assuming it is an increase in pressure in the barrel when the fired since you guys also talk about the gun being able to handle the increase. Also, if the increased pressure happens when the round is fired, how is the increase accomplished? I mean you can have a +p 124 grain round and a regular 124 grain round both have identical cases, etc but one has more pressure. Thanks

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Different gun powder (burn rate and explosiveness) and different amounts of powder.

Mark75H said:

Different gun powder (burn rate and explosiveness) and different amounts of powder.

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Ah! Never thought of the powder itself. Thanks.

You put more gun powder in the case while holding everything else equal... more pressure and more velocity.

See top of Page 4 for the SAAMI specs, including +P

Ammo Jon said:

At the end of the day you want to make sure to function test your handgun. My recommendation is at least 10k rounds. Call me

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I like the AE 124gr NATO you have. I think its NATO spec. Always runs good.

+P and +P+ came about for calibers that have been around a long time.

The early loadings were lower pressure and safe in the guns of the time. Later, gun design and metallurgy allowed the guns to handle higher pressure ammunition. Higher pressures can result in higher velocity or being able to use a heavier bullet at the same velocity.

However, there are a lot of older firearms in that caliber that cannot handle the higher pressure safely. It may result in increase wear, or it can lead to a destroyed firearm.

All standard ammunition in the US is loaded to SAAMMI specifications, including a maximum pressure spec. In most cases, these specs are designed for the ammo to be safe in all firearms in that caliber.

One way to handle this is to modify the case to create a new caliber. This was done with the .38 Special to become .357 Magnum (also .44 Magnum and .44 Special). In these cases, they lengthened the case by 0.1". And in most cases, they will not chamber in a firearm for the parent case (.357 Magnum will not chamber in most .38 Special).

The other way is to load a higher pressure round, and label it for modern firearms only. This is +P and +P+. Originally, they were loaded by some ammunition manufacturers as special rounds, that did not meet SAAMMI specs. Eventually, SAAMMI recognized +P and published specs for them. In the case of some calibers, there was a market for even higher pressure ammo, so the +P+ was developed. There is no SAAMI spec for +P+, so all you know is that it is higher pressure than +P. SAAMI has +P specs for 9 mm. .45 ACP, .38 Auto, .38 Special. and .257 Roberts. Any other caliber of +P, there are not industry specs for them.

So, if you have a modern 9 mm pistol, +P would be fine to use in it. But say a pre-1930 pistol, it would not be a good idea.

You can see the same thing with a few rifle calibers. .45-70 is one. There are loads that are for old Trapdoor Springfield rifles, then much hotter loads for modern rifles like the Marlin 336 of Ruger #1 in that caliber.

Note: The caveat about .357 Magnum not loading into most .38 Special firearms is because some early revolvers do not have a step at the end of the case mouth. The cylinder is bored straight through at cartridge diameter. In these pistols, it is possible to load a .357 round, with disastrous results.

Works on iPhones too!

9mm NATO, often referred to as military spec, are cartridges that are loaded according to the approved military specifications..... 9 mm Luger are not necessarily made to that process but can have the same velocity and energy.

Actually, I was wondering more about powder stabilizers and long term reliability of commercial vs NATO or military ammo.

Dobe said:

Actually, I was wondering more about powder stabilizers and long term reliability of commercial vs NATO or military ammo.

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No explicit requirements for shelf life or powder for that matter. NATO specs call for reliability to a "satisfactory" level across a range of temperatures and after storage for an "appropriate period." How that's achieved is up to the manufacturer or military and what's an acceptable service standard is up to the respective militaries.

9mm Parabellum, 9x19, 9mm NATO and 9mm luger are all the same thing, that being said there is a difference between 5.56 NATO (5.56x45) and .223 and 7.62 NATO (7.62x51) and .308

The Winchester white box 115 gr ammo goes 1300 fps from a 16 inch carbine. The Winchester NATO 124 gr ammo goes 1330 fps from that same carbine.

I have not chronoed those two from a pistol.

Carbine velocity vs pistol velocity is a whole nuther pit of quicksand . The only rule of thumb , is that there are no rules of thumb .

Biggfoot44 said:

Carbine velocity vs pistol velocity is a whole nuther pit of quicksand . The only rule of thumb , is that there are no rules of thumb .

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next we are going to be told 300 blackout has no place in more than a 9 inch barrel

Nah , you can do .300bo in longer bbl . The amount of vel increase per inch will rapidly diminish , but if you have other reasons for wanting a bbl of particular length ( rifle build, prefered balance, longer sight radius etc ) , go for it .

********

Carbine 9x19 velocities have a lot to do with the burning speed of the powder, and almost all store bought 9mm ammo is standardized for nominal pistol length .

Ie two loads of same bullet weight could have same pistol vel, but one of them 200fps faster from rifle . You have to actually chrono a particular lot of ammo to know.