Question on Picking up C&R from Dad in Texas

TxAggie · Jul 22, 2014

My father lives in Texas and wants to give me his Springfield. I'm heading down in a month and will be bringing it back with me. I've applied for my C&R but I don't know if it will get here by then.

Since this is a family transfer, do I have to take it through a FFL once I get it back here? He got it decades ago, so its obviously not "registered."

With that said, is it safe bringing it back with me on a plane? I've never flown with rifles so I'm a bit nervous about that end as well.

Thanks for any help. I'm sure this has been covered before, phone searches are a little difficult so a previous thread link is fine.

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

TxAggie said:
Since this is a family transfer, do I have to take it through a FFL once I get it back here? He got it decades ago, so its obviously not "registered."

No. Family doesn't mean squat here. Unless your dad brings it to Maryland and then gives it to you, you need to transfer it through an FFL in Texas before you come home. Whether a Texas FFL will do this, I believe, depends on whether Maryland law will permit the transfer. My brother lives in California and tried to buy a rifle in March when we were in Houston, and the store refused on the basis that it would not be legal for him under CA law to take immediate possession. I looked into this when he was denied and believe that federal law states that it is unlawful for a dealer in one state to transfer in that state to an unlicensed person who is a resident of another state if the law of the unlicensed person's state prohibits the transfer.

TxAggie said:
With that said, is it safe bringing it back with me on a plane? I've never flown with rifles so I'm a bit nervous about that end as well.

Yes. I fly with rifles and shotguns all the time. The airlines don't care who owns it or whether you have lawful possession. They assume that you do. When you check in, you tell them that you have a firearm to check, they make you open the case, you sign a statement that the firearm is unloaded, you put the signed statement in the case, you lock the case, and away it goes down the chute. When you get to your destination, you pick it up at the baggage office after showing ID.

Boom Boom · Jul 22, 2014

If you have your C&R by then, just bring the rifle home with you and enter it into your bound book. Without a C&R, it must go through an FFL dealer since it's an interstate transfer of possession (applies to non-antique handguns and long guns).

You can put it in with checked baggage on the plane. Just be sure to use a rock-solid storage case.

Boom Boom · Jul 22, 2014

Abulg1972 said:
No. Unless your dad brings it to Maryland and then gives it to you, you need to transfer it through an FFL in Texas before you come home.

It's illegal (MD law) to do FTF C&R transactions within MD, including transfer of possession for no money. Then there is federal law (GCA 1968) banning such a transaction between residents of different states.

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

Here it is. 18 USC § 922(b)(3)

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes[.]

The good news, I believe, is that Maryland law does not prohibit a Maryland resident from purchasing a long gun out of state. I would call a reputable gun store by your dad's house, tell them that your dad lives in TX and you live in MD, and confirm that they will book a transfer at the store from your dad to them and then from them to you.

Machodoc · Jul 22, 2014

This opens an interesting question:

Texas doesn't require a rifle to be registered, and it allows F2F transfers without having to go through an FFL.

Let's say that the OP grew up in TX and left home (to go into the military, etc.), leaving behind family firearms that were already his, and never required an FFL transfer to him by local and state law. Now he's going home just to pick them up.

Wouldn't the firearm(s) just be treated the way that any other pre-C&R acquisition would be? Wouldn't he just bring it home and then log it into his future BB *if* he decides to sell it in the future (which I highly doubt is gonna happen)?

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

TxAggie said:
My father lives in Texas and wants to give me his Springfield. I'm heading down in a month and will be bringing it back with me. I've applied for my C&R but I don't know if it will get here by then.

Since this is a family transfer, do I have to take it through a FFL once I get it back here? He got it decades ago, so its obviously not "registered."

With that said, is it safe bringing it back with me on a plane? I've never flown with rifles so I'm a bit nervous about that end as well.

Thanks for any help. I'm sure this has been covered before, phone searches are a little difficult so a previous thread link is fine.

Boom Boom said:
If you have your C&R by then, just bring the rifle home with you and enter it into your bound book. Without a C&R, it must go through an FFL dealer since it's an interstate transfer of possession (applies to non-antique handguns and long guns).

You can put it in with checked baggage on the plane. Just be sure to use a rock-solid storage case.

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

Boom Boom said:
It's illegal (MD law) to do FTF C&R transactions within MD, including transfer of possession for no money. Then there is federal law (GCA 1968) banning such a transaction between residents of different states.

Would you mind posting a citation to that Maryland law?

Threeband · Jul 22, 2014

Wait till you have your C&R and have him FedEx it to you.

Or just bring it home on the plane. Your dad did give it to you when you were in High School, right?

Let's say that the OP grew up in TX and left home (to go into the military, etc.), leaving behind family firearms that were already his, and never required an FFL transfer to him by local and state law. Now he's going home just to pick them up.

Maryland doesn't "register" Springfields either.

Boom Boom · Jul 22, 2014

Machodoc said:
Texas doesn't require a rifle to be registered, and it allows F2F transfers without having to go through an FFL.

Bold my emphasis. Between Texas residents only. Does not supersede federal law regarding interstate private sales/transfers (Gun Control Act of 1968).

Abulg1972 said:
Would you mind posting a citation to that Maryland law?

The first part of my post is incorrect, unless a part of MD code reinforces federal code. Doesn't matter, though. GCA 1968 thing again.

Machodoc · Jul 22, 2014

Boom Boom said:
Bold my emphasis. Between Texas residents only. Does not supersede federal law regarding interstate private sales/transfers (Gun Control Act of 1968).

Understood, but in my hypothetical situation it was a family gun passed down to him when both were residents of Tejas, then he left home to go to school, the military, whatever, leaving the gun with dad for safekeeping. Now he's just going home to retrieve property that's already his.

TxAggie · Jul 22, 2014

Machodoc said:
This opens an interesting question:

Texas doesn't require a rifle to be registered, and it allows F2F transfers without having to go through an FFL.

Let's say that the OP grew up in TX and left home (to go into the military, etc.), leaving behind family firearms that were already his, and never required an FFL transfer to him by local and state law. Now he's going home just to pick them up.

Wouldn't the firearm(s) just be treated the way that any other pre-C&R acquisition would be? Wouldn't he just bring it home and then log it into his future BB *if* he decides to sell it in the future (which I highly doubt is gonna happen)?

This is basically my situation. I grew up there and the gun was there in our possession while I was still in the house. My father bought it prior to NICS checks were required for long guns and Texas has no registry.

rseymorejr · Jul 22, 2014

He can lend it to you indefinitely

Boom Boom · Jul 22, 2014

Is it yours or your father's? If it's really yours, just take it when you're there. If it isn't yours (be honest with yourself), it's not worth the risk of getting your ass nailed to the wall and permanently disqualified. Not trying to give you a hard time. Just trying to help you avoid temptation and possible world of legal hurt.

rseymorejr said:
He can lend it to you indefinitely

even a lifetime

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

Boom Boom said:
Bold my emphasis. Between Texas residents only. Does not supersede federal law regarding interstate private sales/transfers (Gun Control Act of 1968).

The first part of my post is incorrect, unless a part of MD code reinforces federal code. Doesn't matter, though. GCA 1968 thing again.

I'm pretty sure that your statement that Maryland law prohibits FTF transfers in Maryland is not correct. The only Maryland law governing transfers of rifles and shotguns is found at Section 5-204 of the Public Safety Article of the Annotated Code of Maryland. It is permissible, not prohibitive, and, in my opinion, is not completely enforceable. It deals only with (i) when/if a Maryland resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun (unregulated, that is) from a federally-licensed "gun dealer" located in an "adjacent state" and (ii) when/if a resident of an adjacent state may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally-licensed gun dealer located in Maryland. It provides, in relevant part:

(b) If a resident of this State is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of an adjacent state, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in the adjacent state.

(c) If a resident of an adjacent state is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of this State, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in this State.

This statute does not say, "It shall be unlawful for any person other than . . . . to transfer . . . . except for . . . .". It's scope is very narrow - it applies only to transfers by a "gun dealer". It does not cover, apply to, limit the activities of, etc. an unlicensed person or an 03FFL.

The GCA permits an 03FFL located in Maryland to transfer, at the 03's licensed premises, a C&R firearm to an unlicensed person resident in another state provided that Maryland law and the law of the transferee's state permits the transfer. Except in the case of handguns, Maryland law does not prohibit such a transfer.

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

rseymorejr said:
He can lend it to you indefinitely

No . . . See § 922(a)(5)B(). He can lend it to him for "temporary use for lawful sporting purposes[.]"

Guys, let's keep this on the straight and narrow. Follow the laws. OP - if you don't have your 03 by then, have it transferred through an FFL when you are in TX.

In addition to sharing information about collectable firearms, our job here is to help each other stay out of trouble. Given the fact that these forums are open to all, let's not discuss how one might or might not have received something back in 1942 when he was in high school.

TxAggie · Jul 22, 2014

Boom Boom said:
Is it yours or your father's? If it's really yours, just take it when you're there. If it isn't yours (be honest with yourself), it's not worth the risk of getting your ass nailed to the wall and permanently disqualified. Not trying to give you a hard time. Just trying to help you avoid temptation and possible world of legal hurt.

even a lifetime

He bought it and was always intended to be "mine." When it officially became mine is fuzzy.

I guess he could lend it to me until my C&R comes in?

The bitch of it is all of this should be completely unnecessary.

Thanks everyone for your help on this. This is why I love this community so much.

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

Not that this is "law", but I'd be willing to bet that Cabela's has some high priced lawyers:

https://assets.cabelas.com/assets/product_files/pdf/federal_state_firearms_regs_online.pdf

Maryland: Residents of Maryland can purchase non-regulated (shotguns and non-assault style rifles)
long guns in any other state. Residents any can purchase non-regulated long guns in
Maryland.
(MD Code 5-204:5-123;124)
Note: for a list of regulated firearms in the state of Maryland
please refer to www.ATF.gov

Machodoc · Jul 22, 2014

This happened (in MD) before the laws in this country turned to poo, and to liquid poo in MD, but I'm just using it as an example.

My late grandfather told me (the oldest male grandchild) that all of his guns were mine. He said that to me and other families from the time that I could stand up and hold them. I never got a deed or title, but none of that was necessary, and there were no transfer laws then. When he died, I got the guns, but I was still in high school, so they went with me to my parents' house. They were my guns, and even though I went into the Navy, and couldn't drag them around with me, they were still mine. Years later, when I went back to get them, I was only retrieving my own property. I wasn't taking possession of them from someone else. Had that happened today, I wouldn't hesitate for a minute just taking the guns--my long-standing property--to my new residence in another state.

Abulg1972 · Jul 22, 2014

TxAggie said:
I guess he could lend it to me until my C&R comes in?

No. If you don't have your 03, have it transferred. Done right, no worries, no hiding it under the bed, etc.

Question on Picking up C&R from Dad in Texas

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