Whalen v Handgun Permit Review Board Appeal Brief Filed

CypherPunk · Aug 1, 2019

roadking · Aug 2, 2019

xxxxx

roadking · Aug 2, 2019

echo6mike said:
Well, ya know, this isn't such a bad idea IMHO - seriously, have you *seen* some of the idiots out there voting?

Pass a civics test and an IQ test, then maybe you can vote.

Well, if you look at the numbers, you see that many of the morons DON’T vote. Anyway, no one killed anyone (directly) by being a moron with a vote...

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Occam · Aug 2, 2019

roadking said:
Well, if you look at the numbers, you see that many of the morons DON’T vote. Anyway, no one killed anyone (directly) by being a moron with a vote...

I'll still feel pretty dead if I'm dead because a moron's vote contributed to my inability to save my life.

roadking · Aug 3, 2019

Occam said:
I'll still feel pretty dead if I'm dead because a moron's vote contributed to my inability to save my life.

Probably the same as you’d feel if that idiot neighbor who cant work a socket wrench shot you dead, thinking you were a raccoon in his trash. Two sides to every coin.

Look, I get it. It’s a constitutional right. One that I am all for (in case you guys were doubting). But with rights come responsibilities (yes, I was listening in Civics class). There’s no free lunch and you don’t get one without the other. Where we fall short as a society and humans is the responsibility part. We want all the freedoms without any of the responsibilities. And we can’t have both. Most lawful gun owners - especially those on this forum- understand this and are super responsible about safety, training and education on firearms. But some aren’t. And the consequences are deadly. So we have a conundrum. You can’t throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water (which is what the folks that want to get rid of all guns want to do). And you can’t save every idiot from his or her own stupidity. Unfortunately, we also can’t save everyone else from others’ stupidity, though we try to legislate that, too. But trying to impart SOME semblance of an education on people isn’t a bad idea. Not everybody’s Pappy learnt them good gun safety down by the ole’ oak in the holler. So no, I don’t have a problem with the education part of the rules. I do have an issue with having to justify WHY I want to carry, however.

Flame away. It is the Internet, after all.

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adit · Aug 3, 2019

Here is some Baltimore County "Good and Substantial" from last week.

Here are the reports, from Baltimore County police:

-PARKVILLE: Someone fired several rounds into a second-floor window at a home in the area of Black Oak Road and White Oak Avenue, sometime between 5 p.m. July 27 and 4 a.m. July 28. The victim's vehicle, which was parked out front, was also struck several times by "projectiles." No one was injured.

-WHITE MARSH: Four suspects carjacked a woman at gunpoint at 1:20 a.m. July 31 on Lincoln Woods Way, near Beaconsfield Drive. They pulled up in a vehicle behind the victim, forced her out of the vehicle at gunpoint and stole the vehicle.

-PERRY HALL: "Two to three" suspects robbed someone at gunpoint, at 1:15 a.m. July 21 on Blairwood Road near Silver Spring Road. When the victim refused their request, they assaulted him until he passed out. When he regained consciousness, he found his phone was stolen.

-TOWSON: A victim said he saw an apartment maintenance worker inside his apartment, stealing money, at 9:40 p.m. July 26 on Castle Drive near Walker Avenue. The worker was subsequently arrested.

-PIKESVILLE: Someone robbed an employee at Pizza Hut while they were closing up for the night. At 2:11 a.m., the suspect approached the back door of Pizza Hut, on Reisterstown Road near Sudbrook Lane, and pointed a gun at the victim, ordering them to take money from the safe. The suspect instead took money from the victim, then fled.

-DUNDALK: A person was robbed at gunpoint at 1:50 a.m. July 30 on Wise Avenue near Waterview Road.

-LUTHERVILLE: GT Pizza, on West Seminary Avenue at York Road, was robbed at knifepoint at 3:38 p.m. July 29.

-COCKEYSVILLE: Two people pulled a victim into a nearby bush and forced him to empty his pockets. They then stole his vehicle, but it was found nearby. The crime was reported at about 2 p.m. July 28 on Lord Byron Lane.

-COCKEYSVILLE: Someone was robbed at knifepoint, and suffered a minor cut during the incident. It happened at 10:15 p.m. July 20 on Cranbrook Road at Rossbrooke Circle. The suspects stole the victim's necklace, then fled.

-OWINGS MILLS: Two people robbed victims at about 11:30 p.m. July 29 on Lakeside Boulevard near New Town Boulevard.

-MIDDLE RIVER: Dollar General, on Beacon Road near Marin Boulevard, was robbed at gunpoint at 2 p.m. July 22.

-MT.WASHINGTON: Royal Farms, on Falls Road near Lake Avenue, was robbed at gunpoint at 11:32 p.m. July 28.

-PERRY HALL: Two suspects robbed a Shell station at gunpoint and assaulted the clerk, on Belair Road near Cliffvale Road. It happened at 9:45 p.m. July 25. The suspects also fled in the clerk's vehicle.

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local...cking-in-white-marsh-shots-fired-in-parkville

Mark75H · Aug 3, 2019

roadking said:
Probably the same as you’d feel if that idiot neighbor who cant work a socket wrench shot you dead, thinking you were a raccoon in his trash. Two sides to every coin.

Look, I get it. It’s a constitutional right. One that I am all for (in case you guys were doubting). But with rights come responsibilities (yes, I was listening in Civics class). There’s no free lunch and you don’t get one without the other. Where we fall short as a society and humans is the responsibility part. We want all the freedoms without any of the responsibilities. And we can’t have both. Most lawful gun owners - especially those on this forum- understand this and are super responsible about safety, training and education on firearms. But some aren’t. And the consequences are deadly. So we have a conundrum. You can’t throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water (which is what the folks that want to get rid of all guns want to do). And you can’t save every idiot from his or her own stupidity. Unfortunately, we also can’t save everyone else from others’ stupidity, though we try to legislate that, too. But trying to impart SOME semblance of an education on people isn’t a bad idea. Not everybody’s Pappy learnt them good gun safety down by the ole’ oak in the holler. So no, I don’t have a problem with the education part of the rules. I do have an issue with having to justify WHY I want to carry, however.

Flame away. It is the Internet, after all.

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Literacy tests for rights were ruled unconstitutional long ago

GTOGUNNER · Aug 3, 2019

If you shoot yourself or a family member I could really care less. Cars come with owners manuals, as do Tvs, microwaves etc. I would guess 99% don't read them.
Get hurt or killed, it's not on me. New guns come with owners manuals. Read, don't mandate for all because some are lazy.

hooligan82 · Aug 3, 2019

If eliminating stupidity through legislation were possible, I believe it would have been done by now.

lazarus · Aug 3, 2019

GTOGUNNER said:
If you shoot yourself or a family member I could really care less. Cars come with owners manuals, as do Tvs, microwaves etc. I would guess 99% don't read them.
Get hurt or killed, it's not on me. New guns come with owners manuals. Read, don't mandate for all because some are lazy.

Except “or someone else”. I don’t particularly care for that to be me. Or my kid playing over at your house because you were too stupid to lockup your guns with kids over. Etc.

500 odd are killed each year
through accidental shootings and many more injured.

I see stupid people doing stupid unsafe things with guns all the time. Also why I believe in, at least for carrying outside your home/property, some limited education/training. A “why” should never be a requirement.

Can’t legislate away stupid. Hopefully you can at least crack the book on those that aren’t totally stupid from knowing better.

We do require hunter’s Ed classes in all states before hunting. Yes, I know hunting isn’t a constitutional right. I’d certainly argue that carrying for self defense is greater responsibility and potential risk than hunting.

Stoveman · Aug 3, 2019

lazarus said:
Except “or someone else”. I don’t particularly care for that to be me. Or my kid playing over at your house because you were too stupid to lockup your guns with kids over. Etc.

500 odd are killed each year
through accidental shootings and many more injured.

I see stupid people doing stupid unsafe things with guns all the time. Also why I believe in, at least for carrying outside your home/property, some limited education/training. A “why” should never be a requirement.

Can’t legislate away stupid. Hopefully you can at least crack the book on those that aren’t totally stupid from knowing better.

We do require hunter’s Ed classes in all states before hunting. Yes, I know hunting isn’t a constitutional right. I’d certainly argue that carrying for self defense is greater responsibility and potential risk than hunting.

Except he didn't say "someone else".

I'll take Freedom and Personal Responsibility for a thousand, Alex.

Say hello to Elsie for me at the next MPGV quarterly meeting.

roadking · Aug 4, 2019

Stoveman said:
Except he didn't say "someone else".

I'll take Freedom and Personal Responsibility for a thousand, Alex.

Freedom and personal responsibility don’t have to be separate from ignorance. In fact, just the opposite.

The “someone else” was implied. And it’s the crux of the matter. Does this really need to be pointed out? The only one that gets hurt from a TV is you, when you drop it on your foot. Same with the microwave. And both are entirely contained in your home. But you can kill other people with your car when you leave home with it. People that have no interaction with you than their misfortune of crossing through an intersection when you don’t know to yield the right of way. Hence, the need for education - not to cure your stupidity but to help minimize the chance you blow through a stop sign. Same thing with a gun being taken outside the home. No one is saying they want to prevent the right to carry. But offering (hopefully) useful education might help reduce the number of accidental deaths and injuries. I’m not saying the education has to come with a literacy test, a reading comprehension test or any sort of test (that could certainly be abused by the powers that be to restrict rights). But education itself is no threat to freedom and, IMO, actually improves one’s level of responsibility.

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Stoveman · Aug 4, 2019

roadking said:
Freedom and personal responsibility don’t have to be separate from ignorance. In fact, just the opposite.

The “someone else” was implied. And it’s the crux of the matter. Does this really need to be pointed out? The only one that gets hurt from a TV is you, when you drop it on your foot. Same with the microwave. And both are entirely contained in your home. But you can kill other people with your car when you leave home with it. People that have no interaction with you than their misfortune of crossing through an intersection when you don’t know to yield the right of way. Hence, the need for education - not to cure your stupidity but to help minimize the chance you blow through a stop sign. Same thing with a gun being taken outside the home. No one is saying they want to prevent the right to carry. But offering (hopefully) useful education might help reduce the number of accidental deaths and injuries. I’m not saying the education has to come with a literacy test, a reading comprehension test or any sort of test (that could certainly be abused by the powers that be to restrict rights). But education itself is no threat to freedom and, IMO, actually improves one’s level of responsibility.

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The Right to keep and bear arms is just that, a right, and we don't put prerequisites on their use (or shouldn't anyway).

You want to exercise your first Amendment right? Hang on, we need to get you trained up first so you don't run off and yell fire in a theater or libel or slander someone.

Want to exercise your freedom of religion? Let's get you trained up first so you don't go and start a cult.

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Maybe you and lazarus can split an uber ride to the next meeting.

lazarus · Aug 4, 2019

Stoveman said:
The Right to keep and bear arms is just that, a right, and we don't put prerequisites on their use (or shouldn't anyway).

You want to exercise your first Amendment right? Hang on, we need to get you trained up first so you don't run off and yell fire in a theater or libel or slander someone.

Want to exercise your freedom of religion? Let's get you trained up first so you don't go and start a cult.

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Maybe you and lazarus can split an uber ride to the next meeting.

Except the crying fire and a theater thing was later stuck down. So it’s a terrible example. The only speech that is banned is true threats and harassment. Intentional crimes effectively.

Same with religion. You can do a lot of unintentional harm with the 2, unlike most other of the amendments, without intending malice. All of the rights have some limits. I believe the limits need to be tailored as narrowly as possible to ensure people are not unduly hindered.

But just like the 1st amendment and true threats and harassment being banned, those are infringements. But it balances what is best for individuals and for society. An inexpensive mandatory training class, no test and no other requirements for CCW other than not being a criminal or crazy may well be what is the best balance.

Stoveman · Aug 4, 2019

lazarus said:
Except the crying fire and a theater thing was later stuck down. So it’s a terrible example. The only speech that is banned is true threats and harassment. Intentional crimes effectively.

Same with religion. You can do a lot of unintentional harm with the 2, unlike most other of the amendments, without intending malice. All of the rights have some limits. I believe the limits need to be tailored as narrowly as possible to ensure people are not unduly hindered.

But just like the 1st amendment and true threats and harassment being banned, those are infringements. But it balances what is best for individuals and for society. An inexpensive mandatory training class, no test and no other requirements for CCW other than not being a criminal or crazy may well be what is the best balance.

Typical lib thought, if we don't ban it then we make it mandatory. The camel doesn't need to sneak his nose under your tent, you're going to hold the front door open for him.

rbird7282 · Aug 4, 2019

lazarus said:
Except the crying fire and a theater thing was later stuck down. So it’s a terrible example. The only speech that is banned is true threats and harassment. Intentional crimes effectively.

Same with religion. You can do a lot of unintentional harm with the 2, unlike most other of the amendments, without intending malice. All of the rights have some limits. I believe the limits need to be tailored as narrowly as possible to ensure people are not unduly hindered.

But just like the 1st amendment and true threats and harassment being banned, those are infringements. But it balances what is best for individuals and for society. An inexpensive mandatory training class, no test and no other requirements for CCW other than not being a criminal or crazy may well be what is the best balance.

Except that “balancing” what is best for society is nowhere in the Constitution. This is something that the courts have come up with, and that “balance” is being subjected to politicians and judges who ignore the Constitution. Mandatory training (or anything else) should NOT exist for any right. Period.

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roadking · Aug 4, 2019

Stoveman said:
The Right to keep and bear arms is just that, a right, and we don't put prerequisites on their use (or shouldn't anyway).

You want to exercise your first Amendment right? Hang on, we need to get you trained up first so you don't run off and yell fire in a theater or libel or slander someone.

Want to exercise your freedom of religion? Let's get you trained up first so you don't go and start a cult.

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Maybe you and lazarus can split an uber ride to the next meeting.

Shooting you mouth off exercising your First Amendment rights doesn’t kill anyone. Shooting your gun exercising your Second Amendment rights might. All I’m saying is a little education isn’t a threat. And it might help.

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roadking · Aug 4, 2019

Stoveman said:
Typical lib thought

Do you realize how unintelligent and backwoods you sound with that comment? It’s not constructive at all and does nothing to help further constructive discussion on gun rights. It just makes the opposition less willing to compromise and it embarrasses those of us on the same side as you. Grow up and stop the name calling and have a real discussion.

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Occam · Aug 4, 2019

roadking said:
Shooting you mouth off exercising your First Amendment rights doesn’t kill anyone.

This is demonstrably not the case. People can and do die in riots, and there's a reason that "shooting your mouth off" to start one can be called criminal incitement with that result. The training we receive to help prevent that is called "taking note that other people have gone to jail for doing that." Same as taking note that other people have gone to jail for deliberately or negligently killing people with waffle irons, pointed sticks, guns, cars, fire, ice, pet dogs, passenger jets, pencils, gasoline, bare hands, pressure cookers, sharp garden implements, and every other conceivable object or activity in normal life one way or another.

Mark75H · Aug 4, 2019

roadking said:
Do you realize how unintelligent and backwoods you sound with that comment? It’s not constructive at all and does nothing to help further constructive discussion on gun rights. It just makes the opposition less willing to compromise and it embarrasses those of us on the same side as you. Grow up and stop the name calling and have a real discussion.

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Please give one example of liberal compromise

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