US Army Adopting 6.8?

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  • ohen cepel

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 2, 2011
    4,509
    Where they send me.
    Wasn't the 6.8SPC supposed to kill everyone within 10000000 meters of the target while weighing nothing and having no recoil?!?!?

    This is the new story they'll keep rolling out since they finally adopted a new sidearm (in the same 9mm caliber as the last one).
     

    ezracer

    Certified Gun Nut
    Jul 27, 2012
    4,761
    Behind enemy lines...
    I've always thought that an Israeli Tavor developed in 6.8 SPC would be an excellent weapon for the U.S. military. Let's do it! I might be willing to stretch it to 7 MM.
     

    BRONZ

    Big Brother is Watching
    Jan 21, 2008
    1,648
    Westminster, MD
    That’s funny. I just read something last week it was going to be a 6.5 variant of something.

    6.8, might as well adopt the 7.62x39. Good to about 300/500 then you are throwing rocks.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    That’s funny. I just read something last week it was going to be a 6.5 variant of something.

    6.8, might as well adopt the 7.62x39. Good to about 300/500 then you are throwing rocks.

    IMHO, my bias is towards 6.5 Grendel as I have one of those and not a 6.8SPC.

    That said, part of it is better long range effectiveness, but also better capability against armor.

    6.8SPC isn't really going to get you there compared to 77gr 5.56. A 6.5 Grendel could. A 90gr pill has less drop than a 77gr 5.56 within about 300yds and is similar out to 500yds. It has a bit less velocity, but the weight makes it about the same energy out to 500yds.

    Within 300yds the energy is higher and the effectiveness against soft targets is much higher. Also much better barrier penetration at shorter ranges same with armor penetration.

    You could likely make a 70-80gr steel core bullet for 6.5 Grendel that would have much better armor and obstacle penetration compared to something like M855A1 and still have an "average joe" effective range of 400-500yds.

    If you want longer range performance and drop the maximum armor penetration ability, a 123-130gr 6.5 Grendel is MASSIVELY better than 5.56 possibly can be. It is about on par with 175gr .308 at longer ranges, though obviously a fair amount less energy.

    That said, I think their best bet is to stick with 5.56 and develop either hybrid polymer casings to drive down weights and stick with WC rounds for armor penetration, or rely on advanced 7.62 rounds for armor penetration and figure if you go up against threats you need to rely more on the designated marksmen and medium machines guns as well as artillery and grenades to counter such advanced armored threats.

    And at least until "ironman" suits come along, you can't armor all of a person. Which leaves them vulnerable to volume of fire and things like grenades and artillery.


    But, if you wanted to, something like saboted rounds could be a go to. A 6.5 Grendel with a sabot pushing 69gr .224 bullets would be a NASTY customer. That would likely be pushing 3300-3500fps with (for the diameter) a pretty high BC. I'd imagine with construction like the M855A1 or better yet, a full core of hardened steel instead of just the tip might just be able to penetrate most NIJ IV armor. It would certainly have a very long effective range.
     

    Winged Pig

    Active Member
    Aug 20, 2008
    736
    Calvert County
    Here's a quote from one of the tests, which you can read here: https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

    "During SPC development different bullet diameters of 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 6.8mm, 7 mm, and 7.62 mm were tested, using multiple bullet types, shapes, and weights from 90 to 140 gr--the 6.8 mm was selected because it offered the BEST combination of combat accuracy, reliability, and terminal performance for 0-500 yard engagements in an M4 size package."

    It's about Lethality in all situations, not the lowest common denominator in any of them. This is also one of the few times that the end user (5th group) was a major player in the development of some kit, instead of just a defense contractor submitting a proposal to make themselves rich. Never saw anything like that in any capacity when I served. I for one am impressed with their process and diligence and am more than satisfied with their results. They certainly put in the work for it. Now if the powers that be in Big Green will actually allow it to move forward, then I'll really be impressed.
     

    camo556

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 29, 2021
    2,634
    Say goodbye to all your poop eating direct impingement guns boomers. The Next Generation Squad Weapon is here in 6.8x51. It's a piston gun. Yes they are wasting money on ammo so hot it needs a hybrid case, which burns barrels worse than the STD I gave your mom last night. But its your money to waste, not theirs. So shut yer redneck piehole and crack a red pill bull.

    Today, it has been announced that SIG Sauer have won the contract to provide both the NGSW-Rifle and NGSW-Automatic Rifle. An initial delivery order contract worth $20.4 million has been awarded. SIG’s MCX 6.8 Spear will be designated the XM5 Rifle and the LMG-6.8 belt-fed will be designated the XM250 – designations directly following on from the M4/M4A1 Carbine and M249 SAW which the new weapons will replace. SIG’s selection means that the US Army’s new 6.8mm round will be based on a hybrid metallic case, not the polymer-based design developed by True Velocity.

    Dont worry for the low low price of $38,000.00 plus $34.99 shipping, plus $400 in stamp taxes, plus $150 in NFA transfer fees, plus 1.9% of the final sales price for insurance, you can get it today in 10-12 months with ATF permission (because this is the 13" SBR with suppressor).

     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    DC-W

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    25,290
    ️‍
    Say goodbye to all your poop eating direct impingement guns boomers. The Next Generation Squad Weapon is here in 6.8x51. It's a piston gun. Yes they are wasting money on ammo so hot it needs a hybrid case, which burns barrels worse than the STD I gave your mom last night. But its your money to waste, not theirs. So shut yer redneck piehole and crack a red pill bull.


    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/04/19/sig-sauer-wins-ngsw/

    Dont worry for the low low price of $38,000.00 plus $34.99 shipping, plus $400 in stamp taxes, plus $150 in NFA transfer fees, plus 1.9% of the final sales price for insurance, you can get it today in 10-12 months with ATF permission (because this is the 13" SBR with suppressor).


     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    Yep. Called it months ago. Did they learn from the M14, or are we doing that again? Time will tell . . .
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    14,024
    Yep. Called it months ago. Did they learn from the M14, or are we doing that again? Time will tell . . .
    AR platform to the current US army is like a bad STD no matter what name you put on the penicillin it keeps coming back....
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    AR platform to the current US army is like a bad STD no matter what name you put on the penicillin it keeps coming back....
    But this time they hot rodded it up to 80k PSI chamber pressure and have muzzle energy 2-3x that of 5.56. Once Russia invaded Ukraine I figured OVERMATCH would win the day.

    The troops are going to love it . . .

    One bright spot is that the new optic looks pretty cool. Might actually be good, too.
     

    camo556

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 29, 2021
    2,634
    But this time they hot rodded it up to 80k PSI chamber pressure and have muzzle energy 2-3x that of 5.56. Once Russia invaded Ukraine I figured OVERMATCH would win the day.

    The troops are going to love it . . .

    One bright spot is that the new optic looks pretty cool. Might actually be good, too.
    By the time they make the ammo, UKR war will be over and you and I will be planted in a grave. Actually, I expect to be cremated in space and scattered over the dark side of the moon.

    Now is NOT the time to be making special ammo, wasting rifle primers, or making new rifles. We just need to churn out a **** ton of 7.62x39 and 556.
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947

    Still have no clue why they don't just jump to grendel and call it a day.

    Because 6.5 grendel won’t pierce commie body armor without resorting to exotic materials. MAC totally missed the point on this while he was extolling the virtues of 6.8 SPC. The 6.8x51 they are going to be churning out for big green is capable of piercing commie body armor without resorting to exotic materials like tungsten, hence the req for 3000+ fps performance and a projectile with decent sectional density. At the moment, the projectile the army is going to use is classified, but I expect there will be a big reveal sometime this year. I actually think adopting this and getting rid of the 249, 240, MK46, and MK48 is perfectly fine. Just not so sure the troops are going to want to lug all this crap around instead of their M4s. But we seem to be doing the peacetime army thing at the moment, so maybe it doesn’t really matter that much.

    It is worth noting that the Ukrainians don’t seem to be having any trouble slaying Russkies and they are using a mix of 5.56, 7.62x39, and 5.45x39. Almost as though small arms are not the deciding factor in near peer conflicts.
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    14,024
    OIG needs to take look at this award. Between short barrel life, the over pressure, there seems to be some funny stuff going on. Or the Army felt left out of the F35 albatross.
     

    n1hook

    Active Member
    Feb 28, 2010
    220
    Parkville
    The "caseless" telescoping polymer ammo concept is cool. I have no major objections to them replacing the SAW, but I think replacing the M4 with something chambered in this is a bad idea. As Clandestine pointed out, the recoil is going to be significantly greater than 5.56 (heavier projectile being pushed to as high as 3500 fps out of a 14.5"ish barrel). Assuming they get to the point of testing this in an assault rifle format, I don't think the tests will be favorable unless they cook the books.

    I am glad the Army is throwing down the dev money to try something new. Relying on the free market for completely revolutionary solutions to the admittedly overblown neo-Soviet threat of new body armor is a bad idea. That said I still think the 6.8 caseless telescoping is going to be a flop to replace the M4. Maybe after they get done watching this cartridge push a bunch of 140lb privates around the range while they flinch from the recoil and miss in a comical fashion, they will start looking at smaller projectiles and solutions that don't torch barrels after 1500 rounds. I expect caseless telescoping really is part of a solution to replacing the M4 with a truly better weapon, but until we develop standard issue exoskeletons, I don't think high recoil firearms are in the cards.
    What recoil an issue,ww1 303!3006, ww2 3006,Korea 3006…what has happened to the younger generation? Pronoun learning! Equity…not on the battlefield.
    How revitalization of the cmp..why are th3y still using th3 M1 garand!a fine rifle,but to engage youth when for decades 556 has been the military issue round is self defeating.
    How many youngsters show up for a cmp range session shooting M1 garands..
    I started when I was 16 years old shooting at cmp events through. Local gun club,it helped when I served in the Army.
    I only wish it was better,more detailed.
     

    n1hook

    Active Member
    Feb 28, 2010
    220
    Parkville
    Sadly this will cost lives. Rounds that generate the chamber pressures and velocity they are seeking will lead to extraction issues and massive throat erosion.

    Then they will issue these harder recoiling and heavier systems to female combat troops.
    Pushing the envelope to hard. Should have tried the Swede 6.5x55 it was also made in a semi auto,update rinse adopt!
     

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