Thinking of ditching sabots to go back to full bore bullets

I shoot a Remingon ML700, which I love (even though Remington abandoned us on this one). Anyway, I shoot 100 gr (2 pyrodex pellets) and Hornady .44 cal 240 gr XTP. This combo has served me well for a long time (since ‘97 or 98 maybe). Harvested probably 50+ deer with it. When I 1st set it up I used same grain charge in loose Pyrodex powder and the .50 cal 385 grain Hornady Great Plains bullet. Used to kick the snot out of everything I shot at. Nothing ever moved anywhere other than straight down. Some even flipped in mid air.

The sabot/240 gr bullet load does very well, accurate as heck and has killed every deer I pointed it at, but rarely knocks down the deer even a little. Originally I switched to get more range & accuracy with the lighter & faster bullet. That has worked as planned, and while most of my shots are sub 50 yards, I’ve taken around 6 or 7 deer btw 125-150 yards with relative ease.

Last year I shot a 6 point at 45 yards and the big blast of white smoke as usual obscured my vision, and when it cleared there was no deer laying there, and I had no idea which direction it went. It took a while to find it because I didn’t know where it went and it didn’t bleed a drop for the 1st 30 yards, it was about 40 yards away as the crow flies but it ran about 100 yds total to get to that point (had to blood trail it a while zig-zagging thru a briar thicket). I missed the days the Great Plains 385 would plant the animal. BTW, double lung & both shoulders blown apart, still traveled about a hundred.

I’ve been seriously thinking about giving up on the lighter loads to go back to the stopping power of the GP 385. I never really noticed an accuracy difference btw the 2 load/projectiles at the range or in the woods, though I never took the big bullet out past 100 yards.

Anyone else give up on the sabots and use a full bore size bullet again? I’m thinking about going back to the 385 Great Plains, or the CVA PowerBelt. I’ve become skeptical about the sabot for accuracy or distance fad. If that helps so much why doesn’t the 50 BMG sniper rifle use them, or bench rest 6.5 CM’s? I welcome all opinions & suggestions.

Switched to PowerBelts years ago for similar reasons.

I only use black powder in MD, where 100 yards is a long shot on the property I hunt. Favorite load is a 295gr copper hp, over 150 grains of Pyrodex pellets. Very accurate in my TC Omega and definitely authoritative on deer inside 100 yards or so.

Is that bullet all copper, or plated? Gave up on copper sabot slugs too, accurate but also sissy powered even on dead perfect shots. Switched back to lead slugs & planting deer again. Used to hunt Patuxent Refuge a bunch, had to qualify w/copper so just kept hunting with them. No more.

Plated. Cutaway image in the following link:

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/Copper-Muzzleloading-Bullets.php

AlBeight said:

Is that bullet all copper, or plated? Gave up on copper sabot slugs too, accurate but also sissy powered even on dead perfect shots. Switched back to lead slugs & planting deer again. Used to hunt Patuxent Refuge a bunch, had to qualify w/copper so just kept hunting with them. No more.

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Oh, and they make a pure lead series if that's your preference:

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/Pure-Lead-Muzzleloading-Bullets.php

I shoot 250 grain HXP's in my rifle(s)now. I find that at close range when you recover the bullet the jacket is nearly entirely separated from the core but still drops them. At longer ranges (100 150 yds) the core doesn't move forward because the velocity has dropped off.
So, in one rifle I shoot smokeless and at the closer range (s) its dependent on shock energy transfer, 200yds the bullet stays together and with a good hit they're still dead before they hit the ground so in that case my thinking is because its a pistol bullet its not designed to be driven at the higher smokeless velocities but it still works due to overwhelming energy.
The T/c and Knight rifles that we hunt with are loaded with 90 gr pyrodex powder. Terminal performance is nearly the same with that load vs the 370 maxi balls I have used in the past minus the balloon like trajectory.
Thats why I like them (hxp), an increased MPBR, the draw back is they're sabots so field reloads are a bit slower and the possibility exists of getting the bullet Sabot combo started a little crooked when your in a hurry but no big deal if your familiar with your kit.
I shot a lot of big deer with a favorite customized New Englander, that rifle shoots a 320 maxiball with 80 gr of Pyrodex and the load is accurate and deadly. Ive killed others with 320 reals 10 12 yards with a hard cast pill and it blew right through them but knocked them out inside of sixty yards. (trying to get velocity and correct obturation on the bullet base and wound up with close in shots hunting field edges)
BP rifles are generally considered large conicals @ modest velocity so you have the ability to avoid the ball blowing through and maintaining energy transfer to the fullest extent. Not by the bullet breaking up and losing energy before complete penetration has occurred.
I have some video from this year of good clean BP kills on two year old cull does with the 250 xtp doing its job at 150 yds like a 30-06.
I think I remember the service load for a 58 cal rifle being something like 48 grains of 2ff max effective range out to maybe 400 yds. so why guys want to drop three pellets in they're magnum muzzle-loaders is beyond me. The law of diminishing returns comes into effect somewhere in there but to each his own.
I choose xtps know because its a good combination of price, availability and accuracy. ( shoot all sabots as close to bore diameter as you can get)
You'll know when your there when the report is a sharp crack like a 22 mag. If you get a boom your getting blow by by a bad gas seal and losing some so that's where close as bore diameter projies come in.
Same thing when using conicals, if the projie is working the base has expanded effectively sealing the bore = velocity without 100 plus grain charges and accuracy because the rifling has a chance to work.
If you need more velocity use a wad or some hornet nest material to protect the base of the conical. MMP sabots don't have that problem even with smokeless at modest velocity charges. Or even higher velocity for that matter as far as I know which = consistency.
Its a double edged sword and ten one half dozen then the other, no free lunch in there so to speak. I have no idea why there is no sabot loads for 50 cal rifles that's out of my league.
If you figure something out let me know, I'm interested in shooting/ hunting with Muzzle loading rifles and been doing it a long time and made the same observations. I think its a velocity problem/qestion.
Ill throw up a picture tomorrow of a recovered xtp from a long range hit and it looks like it should as far as expansion, maybe I have some with separated cores if I didn't melt the lead out of them or they might be stuck in the dross pot.

The .44 Cal XTP 240 Gr bullet has taken down many deer for me over the years with 100 grs of BH209. I hunted last year and this year with a Barnes 250 TEZ over the same powder charge and noticed a better blood trail and what seemed to be more effective knock down power on the 3 Deer I took. Just my 2 cents. This with a CVA Accura V2. No need for more than 100 grs of powder-unless your going out west for Elk.

* To Me * , the hole point ( pun intended ) of using a .50 cal rifle is to make .50cal holes in what I shoot .

I agree wit Biggfoot44

Umm

I am very satisfied with two pellets of White hots with the 250 Barnes tmz. Knocks them down, if they run it's not far. Like you said most of my shots are close - I could hit them with a stick!
I have not tried the Powerbelt yet, mAybe when I run out of what I got.
Good luck with the search.

230 and 6ths gr. retained weight. My theory is if you drive these too fast they break up.
Well not really a theory its a fact determined from recovered examples.
I think Hornady makes a specific bullet for MZ velocities in 300 gr and a little higher BC but I don't use them because of the additional cost when you purchase them by the cent. 100ct.
This one was recovered from a cull doe at about 150yds 90gr pyro from a 24"inch Knight barrel, it was found right at the base of the hide on the other side.
The other thing I just remembered is try to avoid quartering shots close in because the hp design/deformation will dump energy quick before penetration occurs.
And yeah there's nothing like a 1/2 inch 370 maxi hunter though. Ive seen that one cease forward movement run 20 or thirty and down for the count. No worries about quartering there.
If I wasn't using optics on a modern ML I would be using them to avoid the problem entirely for woods hunting so I keep some around as well as reals that I cast.
Happy Hunting

I size Parker Ballistic extremes but have converted my 700ml to smokeless

Never had much luck with powerbelts. My ML like 90 grains of BH209 and 250 gr. Barnes. The deer I shot with this load didn't go far.



Shot this group at 100 yards

Tried TC shockwaves couldn't get them to group well either.

Thanks for all the input. Going to finish the year with current, tried & true load that fills my freezer every year. Then I’m switching back to full-size non-saboted rounds. Many suggested the Barnes, I’ll take a good hard look at those. I’ve never lost a deer with this current sabot load, but often it takes a while to find ‘em even after double lung hits and both shoulders blown apart. The old Great Plains 385 I shot originally used to plant them, I wanna get back to that. I’ll try a couple brands, see if I can get some extra range and good accuracy in a bigger bullet. Agreed with Biggfoot44, I’m using a .50 cal rifle, I’m going back to .50 cal performance.

I make similar points in my opinions on shotgun slugs . I carefully consider the tradeoffs involved in attempting to turn a 125yd hunting platform into 200yd platforms .

For discussion sake , stretching a 75yd platform out 125yds IS a big deal . But to me 125-ish is a major curve point on the hypothetical chart of usefullness .

Just had another experience that solidifies my choice to ditch lighter sabot muzzleloader projectiles (specifically the Hornady 44 cal 240 gr xtp green sabot). Shot a big doe tonight (public land - muzzleloader only), perfect textbook broadside facing left, shot at 45 yds. She kicked, then took off with the other 5 does. She ran 30 yds left (west), turned hard right for 30 yds north, then another right for 30 yds east, then hard left and tumbled 15 yds north again before piling up against a log. All that running and she was dead less than 50 linear yds from where she started, just took the scenic route getting there.

Again as I’ve stated before I still got her, but once again with the white smoke all over I missed seeing all these maneuvers. I’ve uploaded 2 pics, this 44 cal saboted bullet barely ticked off a rib and turned hard right, apparently tumbling and tore thru the duodenum and exited the opposite side in key-hole fashion. Luckily it missed all the guts. This is the last straw with these lighter rounds. At the scene of the shot there was zero hair, blood, meat, etc... Followed her dug-up track, and after the aforementioned 3rd turn she finally started bleeding out of both sides like a paint sprayer. No blood til this point, not unlike many deer I’ve killed with this bullet. If I didn’t stumble onto the blood trail I’d have never found her, as the other does didn’t make those last 2 turns - I woulda kept along their path thinking she went with them.

Again, this load has killed every single deer I’ve thrown it towards, between 50 and 75 approx. About 80% of them tear outta there as described above, and this was the last time. Going back to the bigger 50 cal thumpers without the stupid sabots.

Top pic is the exit wound. No she was 100% NOT quartering. Bottom pic is entrance, perfect round 44 cal hole. Inside you could see the rib it deflected off.

AlBeight said:

I shoot a Remingon ML700, which I love (even though Remington abandoned us on this one). Anyway, I shoot 100 gr (2 pyrodex pellets) and Hornady .44 cal 240 gr XTP.

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My personal opinion is you're light on your powder. I use 3 pellets/150gr of Pyrodex pellets.

Granted, I haven't shot a BP rifle in over 5 years, but I wouldn't consider 100gr as being enough punch for my bullets.

Just one man's opinion.

j_h_smith said:

My personal opinion is you're light on your powder. I use 3 pellets/150gr of Pyrodex pellets.

Granted, I haven't shot a BP rifle in over 5 years, but I wouldn't consider 100gr as being enough punch for my bullets.

Just one man's opinion.

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Thought about that too. My 700ML is one of the 1st year’s models, and I’m not positive I can go that high. I could be wrong but I think Remington came out with a “Magnum” version a few years later, touting the 150 gr load. I’ll need to check that for sure. Good point.

I've also noticed this issue with my Hornady Sabots out of my rifled shotgun. My 'first' doe of the season was an easy 50 yard shot from a tree stand that I took my time on. It looked like a solid hit before it spun around and took off. I didn't hear a crash. When I got down from the stand, no blood, no fur, and no sign of her. On opening firearms day, and tagged a buck, and it ran for the tree line before it went down, trashed for a couple of seconds, and was done. I climbed down, checked him out - clean pass-through (clipped a bit of the heart). My buddy brought a range finder, and I wanted to see how far my shot was. I walked out to where I thought I hit him, and couldn't figure out where that was - no hair, no blood. I can only estimate the distance to be ~60 yards.

Last post-thanksgiving weekend, I bagged two bucks on the same day. The first one was a good hit (~50 yards), and it took off, and I heard a loud crash at the tree line followed by silence. An hour later, a nice buck came by - another 50 yard shot, and he flopped down, tried to get up twice and was done.

I'm going to stick with this ammo - as I still have 8 boxes of it, and most of the time I'm able harvest these rounds.

Can you tell me why in the world you'd have a picture of a baby playing with a firearm in your signature? What are you trying to say with that? That's got to be the most irresponsible thing I've seen on this forum in a LONG TIME.

Please consider removing that picture.