Carrying on private land.

redeemed.man · Nov 7, 2017

DaemonAssassin said:
We refer back to the law states what you can not do. The law does not state what you can do. In the absence of it being illegal, that action is considered legal.

Correct, in this case the law says you can't carry anywhere EXCEPT specified places and/or during specified activities. That clearly makes everything else illegal.

ADR · Nov 7, 2017

boundlessdyad said:
You are wrong. You don't have to like it, agree with it, or believe it to be constitutional. Heck you don't even have to obey it. I don't like it, agree with it, or believe it to be constitutional. Facts are facts, it is not legal in Maryland to carry on your neighbors property even with their permission just for the hell of it. This of course applies to those without a handgun permit.

The terms "pure BS" and the quotes around "defiance" don't change the fact that you are wrong either.

That is all.

Gotcha. Next time I'm on duty and not sure what charges to apply I'll be sure to call a public adjuster.

DaemonAssassin · Nov 7, 2017

lazarus said:
Except read the start of the law in question...it says you CANNOT open or conceal carry a handgun in Maryland and then goes on to list the EXCEPTIONS to this blanket ban (ie, “what you can do”) LEO have a blanket exemotion from the law. As do serving members of the military in the performance of their duties. W&C holders have a limited exemption.

The law isn’t that long. Click the link and read it. I’d figured as long as you’d been around you had. There is a bit of “what exactly does that mean?” But it is mostly clear language with only a bit of gray area or ambiguity.

It does NOT list an exception to open carrying a handgun on a friend’s property. Unless you are there to target shoot, hunt or they are fixing your gun as a licensed gun smith, or perhaps it might be okay if you were spending the night (see residing exception) then you are carrying illegally.

Early question in the hotel room/tent and a handgun...tent camping, absolutely not legal unless you are engaged in hunting or target shooting ancillary to that (then you’d probably be okay). Just spending a night in a hotel room, also probably not okay unless involved in hunting or target shooting in some way. For instance it would probably be kosher if I were to go to the range in Greenridge, take a hundgun for target shooting and then spend a night in a hotel nearby or camp in the state Forrest with one. You could be hunting and do that as well probably (don’t carry it around while you are going to a restaurant).

My 2 cents are not something I’d want to test. Spending a night at a friend’s house in connection with one of the other legal exceptions would also probably be okay.

LEO does not have a blanket exemption in the eyes of the law, no matter how you spin this, nor does military. Your unfounded assumptions, that are then made as statements are legally and factually incorrect.

As for the bolded part. You want to make this personal and attack me in that way, then more power to you. Remember one thing though. I've read more, seen more, spoken more, and interacted with more shooters, attorneys, and law enforcement than you probably have in your lifetime. Oh I almost forgot the best little tidbit for you. I have had to interact with law enforcement almost every single day for the past 12 years of my life, due to my job.

You keep focusing on what the law says are exemptions in 4-203, but you aren't reading the other sections of COMAR, because you are so focused on one tiny little part, in an attempt to support your argument.

I never once said that my OC/CC BBQ involved shooting, you assumed it, as did all the others that jumped on the bandwagon. Again we must come back to the legal aspect of it it not listed as illegal, the act is considered legal.

I have given permission to a select few to walk around my property OC/CC should they wish to do so. I have attended a few OC/CC BBQ's when there was no shooting on private property and LE didn't care. They approached us and made sure that we had permission to carry on the owner's property, by asking the owner. At that time LE left and did not return.

I don't know how much more clearly I can show that your statements are legally and factually incorrect.

redeemed.man · Nov 7, 2017

ADR said:
Gotcha. Next time I'm on duty and not sure what charges to apply I'll be sure to call a public adjuster.

Yeah you do that, or you could try checking in with the numerous lawyers on the forum who can also read the plain English of the law. It really is plain English. Not sure what academy training you had that led you to believe that the law on the books is not actually the law. Sure there is discretion in enforcement, I'll gladly acknowledge that. It doesn't change the black and white of the law.

It doesn't matter much to me either way because I wouldn't be attending an open carry BBQ in Maryland with or without a handgun permit.

redeemed.man · Nov 7, 2017

I am open to education if this section of law is no longer valid. Someone, anyone, please demonstrate how and why this doesn't apply to an open carry bbq? It states all carry is illegal except under specified activities and locations. Numerous forum members that are lawyers have previously advised the same. What's changed?

redeemed.man · Nov 7, 2017

Under current Maryland law can everyone in a neighborhood give each other permission to carry on one another's property so that carry basically becomes "legal" as long as your feet never touch the public street?

Biggfoot44 · Nov 7, 2017

But in the case of 4-203 and predecessor statutes it Does say an activity is Always illegal, unless it fall under specific exemption.

lazarus · Nov 8, 2017

Daemon, I am not trying to make it personal. Your responses made it sound like you didn’t know what 4-203 said or weren’t aware of it. Also that you aren’t citing where in the law it says that you can give permission to carry a handgun on your personal property to someone else and it is legal (when 4-203 seems to exclude that as a possibility) You call out that if a law doesn’t give you permission to do something, then you can assume permission, but 4-203 says it is banned and then calls out specific exemptions and what you mention is not one of them. I haven’t seen any other exceptions anywhere else in Maryland statutes. I certainly don’t know all of them, but I’ve never heard anyone refer to a specific statute where I/we could see, “yup, there we go. There is an an exception to 4-203 for X activity”

And yes, I am aware it isn’t a total blanket exemption for LEO, but there are few limitations when they are on duty during the lawful performance of those duties. I can tell them they can’t come on to my property carrying a firearm if I want, but only if I could legally tell them they can’t come on to my property period. If they have a legal right to override the private property owner’s wishes/command, then me telling them they can’t be carrying has no force of law. I’ve also worked with LEO for a number of years, though not in awhile I’ll admit.

I am not trying to be a smart ass about it. If you can long to where in the law it says a private property owner can grant exemptions to others to carry on their property I would really love to know so I can print it and have a copy handy. But until then the best I hear is a LEO(s) using discretion in not enforcing the law or just isn’t knowledgeable about the law.

In my experience LEOs know more about the law than your average person, but they are not experts in the law and they know a lot less about certain aspects of the law than some people do. I’ve met many LEOs that think it is illegal to record them in public for instance, where in most states it isn’t (and the few state/local laws banning public recording of a LEO are blatantly unconstitutional and have always been overturned, like MD’s old law banning it).

HeatSeeker · Nov 8, 2017

Ifmacfie said:
I hunt in Garrett county and have been seeing more and more signs of bear. It’s my in laws property and I have permission. I was wondering if it was legal to open/conceal carry while I’m bow hunting there.

If you haven't gotten your answer yet, skip over all the arguing here that doesn't really pertain to your actual question, click the link below, and scroll down to Archery regulations. You will see where it says you may carry a handgun while bow hunting in Region A(Garrett, Allegany, and Washington counties).

http://www.eregulations.com/maryland/hunting/white-tailed-deer-seasons-bag-limits/

esqappellate · Nov 8, 2017

lazarus said:
Daemon, I am not trying to make it personal. Your responses made it sound like you didn’t know what 4-203 said or weren’t aware of it. Also that you aren’t citing where in the law it says that you can give permission to carry a handgun on your personal property to someone else and it is legal (when 4-203 seems to exclude that as a possibility) You call out that if a law doesn’t give you permission to do something, then you can assume permission, but 4-203 says it is banned and then calls out specific exemptions and what you mention is not one of them. I haven’t seen any other exceptions anywhere else in Maryland statutes. I certainly don’t know all of them, but I’ve never heard anyone refer to a specific statute where I/we could see, “yup, there we go. There is an an exception to 4-203 for X activity”

And yes, I am aware it isn’t a total blanket exemption for LEO, but there are few limitations when they are on duty during the lawful performance of those duties. I can tell them they can’t come on to my property carrying a firearm if I want, but only if I could legally tell them they can’t come on to my property period. If they have a legal right to override the private property owner’s wishes/command, then me telling them they can’t be carrying has no force of law. I’ve also worked with LEO for a number of years, though not in awhile I’ll admit.

I am not trying to be a smart ass about it. If you can long to where in the law it says a private property owner can grant exemptions to others to carry on their property I would really love to know so I can print it and have a copy handy. But until then the best I hear is a LEO(s) using discretion in not enforcing the law or just isn’t knowledgeable about the law.

In my experience LEOs know more about the law than your average person, but they are not experts in the law and they know a lot less about certain aspects of the law than some people do. I’ve met many LEOs that think it is illegal to record them in public for instance, where in most states it isn’t (and the few state/local laws banning public recording of a LEO are blatantly unconstitutional and have always been overturned, like MD’s old law banning it).

This is all very sound advice........

redeemed.man · Nov 8, 2017

Thanks for weighing in

Velpoe · Mar 17, 2018

So it's legal to carry in Region A now while bowhunting. I knew they had proposed that reg but thought it hadn't been approved yet. Good to know. I had a bear (small one) walk up on me while bow hunting on Dans Mountain last year. I was on the ground but it never saw me...I just watched him and took some pictures, LOL!

What the reg doesn't say is whether the carry has to be OC or if CC is allowed. Maybe doesn't matter, but I'd be nervous if approached by a DNR-LEO for a simple license check and I was carrying concealed without knowing the legality. Probably would be OK, but still...

lazarus · Mar 17, 2018

Yes, region A only. Yes, it must be open carried, just like if you were using the handgun for hunting and not just protection. Be careful with the clothing you are wearing that it doesn't conceal it. Also note the restrictions, the barrel length MUST be less than 6 inches in length (so it isn't legal to hunt deer or bear with it).

Biggfoot44 · Mar 17, 2018

Actually the language is " Barrell length not exceeding six inches " , and also no optics .

So you could use of of exactly six inches .

Velpoe · Mar 17, 2018

Hey lazarus, where do the regs state that a handgun must be carried open? Either for deer hunting or for bear protection?

lazarus · Mar 18, 2018

You are right, it doesn’t say it must be OC. I guess whatever applies for the other transport provisions would apply.

Also spot on the barrel length. I would have sworn it said less than 6, as the length legal for hunting is no less than 6.

Velpoe · Mar 18, 2018

Yeah that's my read on it. If I decided to carry while bowhunting, I don't think I'd want to have it strapped around my ghillie suit on the outside.
I checked in COMAR for the language too and it's verbatim what the DNR regs state. I saw on one "lawyer" site where they claim to provide COMAR that used the language "openly carry", but it doesn't say that in the most recent version.

yakfish · Mar 19, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
^^^Agreed.^^^

If carrying on other people's private property were the law of the land, all of us could carry in the homes and yards of family members and friends.

But it doesn't work that way.

Uh, except it actually does work that way.

You can CC or OC on private property, as long as the owner allows it.

lazarus · Mar 20, 2018

yakfish said:
Uh, except it actually does work that way.

You can CC or OC on private property, as long as the owner allows it.

No you can’t. Look at the transport provisions for handguns. There is NO exception for carrying on another person’s property. The law strictly forbids the carry of a handgun and then goes forth and lists the exceptions, such as being a law enforcement officer, having a wear and carry permit or one of the (7?) exceptions such as hunting, transport and use at range/competition, your OWN private property, hunting, dog training, your business and one or two others.

There are no exceptions in the law about carrying on someone else’s private property. I absolutely could not take a handgun to my neighbor’s property even if he was fine with it.

It is stupid as hell, but look at the language of the law. Occasionally it seems like someone says it is fine, it is not.

Unless you are carrying at your buddies place because you guys are shooting on his property (target or hunting) or your friend is a certified gunsmith and he is helping you “fix” your gun...nope.

shocka04 · Mar 20, 2018

It must differ depending on the season as well. I was told by DNR during bear season that If I carried a handgun during the hunt, the handgun barrel had to be at least 6 inches.

Carrying on private land.

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