LEO using 77R for banned "assault" weapons?

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  • RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,181
    They do already.

    And please understand, I'm not talking about guys like RD or 1time or the other LEOs that we all know. Just by dint of being here, those guys demonstrate that they're on our side of things. When I talk about the "they" in these last few posts, I mean the brass and other guys who stand up and say "the police support this, mere civilians need a license to exercise their rights!"

    I wonder how many of those guys would back off that stance if all of their rank and file were suddenly required to jump the same hoops that the rest of us do?

    The animosity caused by the “different class” rhetoric... does NOTHING to help this situation.

    It pisses on the very folks who you profess to be those you want to “drag down to a lower class level” and hope they will fight beside you to end what most of THEM ARE ALREADY FIGHTING TO END. And in the process it simply makes their position more difficult to digest. Kicking someone in the nuts because you think it will make them fight for you... is foolishness.

    We are not a separate class of people because the state recognized that we’ve already satisfied the requirements of the law... by virtue of the fact that we have had far more than the minimum STATE RECOGNIZED CERTIFIED training required to satisfy the law.

    Once you’ve passed the requirements for the HQL... Should you be required to do it again each year?

    Active LE and Military do... they must qualify each year.

    I guess since you don’t have to requalify each year to maintain the HQL... that must make you a higher class of person. :sarcasm:

    See how that works? :shrug:
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    No, it doesn't, because NO ONE who has an HQL has to requalify for the HQL. You and the military might have to do it for your jobs, but an HQL is valid for the same amount of time for everyone, which is fine with me.

    Also, though you keep harping on the training aspect, my argument with this isn't with the training. It's that some people are exempt from having to have a license for their rights altogether. If some of us need an HQL for exercising our rights, all of us should need one.

    Also also, If you're getting upset over my stance on the whole thing or you feel some kind of animosity over it, that's your deal. I'm not upset at cops or the military, and I believe that I have made it clear that I'm not. I'm upset at a law that furthers the entire idea that there are some people who ought to be treated differently than others with respect to our right simply because of their jobs.
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,181
    No, it doesn't, because NO ONE who has an HQL has to requalify for the HQL. You and the military might have to do it for your jobs, but an HQL is valid for the same amount of time for everyone, which is fine with me.

    Also, though you keep harping on the training aspect, my argument with this isn't with the training. It's that some people are exempt from having to have a license for their rights altogether. If some of us need an HQL for exercising our rights, all of us should need one.


    Also also, If you're getting upset over my stance on the whole thing or you feel some kind of animosity over it, that's your deal. I'm not upset at cops or the military, and I believe that I have made it clear that I'm not. I'm upset at a law that furthers the entire idea that there are some people who ought to be treated differently than others with respect to our right simply because of their jobs.
    I won’t be ignorant and accuse you of “harping” or failing to get it... I’ll simply try to explain this further in hopes that you will see what the difference really is.

    Do you have a MPTC (Maryland Police Training Commision) Card? No? The LEOS are required to have one. Yet you are not. You ONLY need obtain a HQL.

    Would you like to go through that training to get a MPTC Card?

    Just so we can ALL can “be in the same class” of persons?

    Because... I assure you that getting your HQL is FAR easier than getting the MPTC Card that the state requires the LEO to obtain and carry. And they must requalify every year to maintain their certification.

    You seem to think that it is easier for the LEO. Because you don’t know what that LEO is required to do for that “class” you keep talking about. Want equal “classes”?

    I am fine with that... if you are willing to put yourself and all other Maryland buyers through the same training to get the MPTC Card... and complete the required requalification once each year.

    So instead of being overly redundant... the state sees the requirements of the MPTC Card as far greater than those of the HQL. THEREFORE... the state deemed it unnecessary for those who qualify for the MPTC Card... to also be required to obtain a HQL.

    Want it all to be “equal class”? FINE.. Obtain your MPTC Card. Then you will have done as much as any Maryland LEO has done to qualify to buy a firearm in this damn state. And then everyone will be in the same class. OR... you can simply accept the fact that your HQL was FAR easier to obtain than the LEOs MPTC Card and stop thinking that Police are treated better than you. The exemption in the law is not because LEOs are a different class... it IS because they’ve ALREADY COMPLETED A FAR MORE RIGOROUS QUALIFICATION... and have the certificate to prove it.

    Or... are those with a HQL... a “better class” than the Police... who must do far more work to obtain their cards? :cool:
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Do you have a MPTC (Maryland Police Training Commision) Card?

    You know the answer to that, and it's because I am not a cop. Do you have the professional certifications that I have to maintain? No, because you're not an engineer. Do I have to maintain the professional certifications that some of the guys on here who are crane operators do? No, because I am not a crane operator.

    Because you don’t know what that LEO is required to do for that “class” you keep talking about. Want equal “classes”?

    I do actually, know exactly what's involved in it. And you know right well that when I use the word "class," I'm not talking about a group of people sitting in a room getting taught something.

    It's not about what's easier for who, or the fact that heavens to betsy, you have to take required training for your job, god forbid. It's about the fact that anyone who is not police or military has to pay money and be licensed to exercise a right. I think that's wrong in the first place, but if you're going to do it, that everyone should have to do it. And again, just so I'm clear here, I am NOT talking about training. I am talking about the requirement or lack thereof for an HQL at all. I said that you were harping on it earlier because while I am talking about the HQL itself, you keep bringing up training over and over again. It's fairly obvious that police get more training than the average person does, and I'm not arguing that. I am arguing against the idea that some of us have to pay money and be licensed in order to exercise a right, and some don't.

    Question for you (because I honestly don't remember this): do you guys have to pay for the training to get the MPTC cards, or is that paid for by your department? (Or does it vary by agency?)
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,181
    You know the answer to that, and it's because I am not a cop. Do you have the professional certifications that I have to maintain? No, because you're not an engineer. Do I have to maintain the professional certifications that some of the guys on here who are crane operators do? No, because I am not a crane operator.



    I do actually, know exactly what's involved in it. And you know right well that when I use the word "class," I'm not talking about a group of people sitting in a room getting taught something.

    It's not about what's easier for who, or the fact that heavens to betsy, you have to take required training for your job, god forbid. It's about the fact that anyone who is not police or military has to pay money and be licensed to exercise a right. I think that's wrong in the first place, but if you're going to do it, that everyone should have to do it. And again, just so I'm clear here, I am NOT talking about training. I am talking about the requirement or lack thereof for an HQL at all. I said that you were harping on it earlier because while I am talking about the HQL itself, you keep bringing up training over and over again. It's fairly obvious that police get more training than the average person does, and I'm not arguing that. I am arguing against the idea that some of us have to pay money and be licensed in order to exercise a right, and some don't.

    Question for you (because I honestly don't remember this): do you guys have to pay for the training to get the MPTC cards, or is that paid for by your department? (Or does it vary by agency?)

    1) A HQL is a State recognized certificate which is issued to persons who’ve received the minimum training required to be allowed by law to purchase a firearm.

    2) A MPTC Card is a State recognized certificate which is issued to persons who’ve received the minimum training to become a Maryland LEO.

    The requirements for 1... are FAR LESS THAN the requirements for 2.

    Both 1 and 2 are State recognized certificates which satisfy the requirements of the training which the HQL law requires.

    Therefore, the idea that...
    those who have a certificate proving they have more than met the minimum requirements for 1 by obtaining 2... must then attend the minimum required training AGAIN and obtain 1 also... is ridiculously redundant.

    As is any continuation of this exchange.

    And to suggest that my reference to “class” had anything to do with “classroom”... is utterly inane. :sad20:

    As to your question about payment for the certification...

    Yes I paid for mine... as did everyone else who was hired and attended the Academy with me. We were required to serve a specific amount of time in the Agency after graduation to pay for the training... (work off the debt) OR pay back the cost of our training in cash. So save your “I paid for mine but you got yours free” BS. It doesn’t fly.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    1) A HQL is a State recognized certificate which is issued to persons who’ve received the minimum training required to be allowed by law to purchase a firearm.

    No, it is a license. It's in the name, and this particular license is needed in Maryland to exercise a Constitutional right.

    2) A MPTC Card is a State recognized certificate which is issued to persons who’ve received the minimum training to become a Maryland LEO.

    It's a certificate which provides proof of certification for training you need for your job. It doesn't affect your rights.

    The requirements for 1... are FAR LESS THAN the requirements for 2.

    Both 1 and 2 are State recognized certificates which satisfy the requirements of the training which the HQL law requires.

    Therefore, the idea that...
    those who have a certificate proving they have more than met the minimum requirements for 1 by obtaining 2... must then attend the minimum required training AGAIN and obtain 1 also... is ridiculously redundant.

    Again you're harping on the training. This isn't about training. You seem to believe that there should be training required to exercise a constitutional right. I don't. Like I said before, I accept that police officers have more firearms training than the average person, because it's required for their jobs. Likewise, as an IT engineer, I have more training in computer stuff than you do.

    My gripe is with the fact that "mere citizens" are required to have a license in order to exercise a constitutional right, and LEO / Military are not. My objection has nothing to do with training. At all.

    As is any continuation of this exchange.

    Then stop posting about it. ;)


    Yes I paid for mine... as did everyone else who was hired and attended the Academy with me. We were required to serve a specific amount of time in the Agency after graduation to pay for the training... (work off the debt) OR pay back the cost of our training in cash. So save your “I paid for mine but you got yours free” BS. It doesn’t fly.


    Again, not what I meant and you know it. Did you have to pay, with your own money, for that card? You are equating a card that says you completed some employer required and employer paid for training with a license that other people are required to get in order to exercise a right. It's not the same thing.
     

    basscat

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 23, 2012
    1,390
    I'm sure you didn't pay for your fingerprints either like all non LEO's had to.
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,181
    No, it is a license. It's in the name, and this particular license is needed in Maryland to exercise a Constitutional right.



    It's a certificate which provides proof of certification for training you need for your job. It doesn't affect your rights.



    Again you're harping on the training. This isn't about training. You seem to believe that there should be training required to exercise a constitutional right. I don't. Like I said before, I accept that police officers have more firearms training than the average person, because it's required for their jobs. Likewise, as an IT engineer, I have more training in computer stuff than you do.

    My gripe is with the fact that "mere citizens" are required to have a license in order to exercise a constitutional right, and LEO / Military are not. My objection has nothing to do with training. At all.



    Then stop posting about it. ;)





    Again, not what I meant and you know it. Did you have to pay, with your own money, for that card? You are equating a card that says you completed some employer required and employer paid for training with a license that other people are required to get in order to exercise a right. It's not the same thing.

    The trouble here... is your insistence that you are somehow made to suffer more to get to exercise your right to buy a firearm than the LEO is... YOU ARE WRONG. LEOs go through much more than you to do the very same thing.

    And since you can not exhibit simple respect and courtesy in your insisting that what I post is "harping"... Talk to your self. :tdown:

    AND for the record...

    License = Certificate
    Certificate = License
    according to: https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/license?s=t

    licensesee definition of license
    nounauthority, permissionnounabandon, indulgenceverbauthorize
    Relevance
    A-ZLength+
    Synonyms for license

    noun authority, permission
    authorization
    certificate
    charter
    consent
    exemption
    grant
    immunity
    permit
    privilege
    right
    ticket
    warrant
    dispensation
    entitlement
    freedom
    go-ahead
    independence
    latitude
    leave
    liberty
    okay
    self-determination
    unconstraint
    carte blanche
    green light

    Have a nice evening.
     

    basscat

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 23, 2012
    1,390
    Your comment "Leo's go through much more than you to do the very same thing" is not quite accurate. Did you pay $50 for fingerprints and $50 to get the right to buy a handgun? Didnt think so.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    Your comment "Leo's go through much more than you to do the very same thing" is not quite accurate. Did you pay $50 for fingerprints and $50 to get the right to buy a handgun? Didnt think so.

    I’m a cop and i paid 53 for fingerprints and 50 for my right
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    Then I'm going to have to ask why? If you're a cop then you're exempt.

    False

    Years in a tac unit

    A year in robbery

    3 years narcotics

    Patrol here/there

    Had to get HQL. I carried a bigger gun to get my HQL than the gun i wanted to buy


    Live in MD, not a MD cop......considered the same as you bud. I’m okay with how they consider me and just as outraged at the “tax”
     

    28Shooter

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 19, 2010
    8,206
    Baltimore, Maryland
    1)
    Yes I paid for mine... as did everyone else who was hired and attended the Academy with me. We were required to serve a specific amount of time in the Agency after graduation to pay for the training... (work off the debt) OR pay back the cost of our training in cash. So save your “I paid for mine but you got yours free” BS. It doesn’t fly.

    So RD, were you being paid during your service for "a specific amount of time in the Agency after graduation to pay for the training"?
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    The trouble here... is your insistence that you are somehow made to suffer more to get to exercise your right to buy a firearm than the LEO is... YOU ARE WRONG. LEOs go through much more than you to do the very same thing.

    You might want to consider the other half of the HQL and that is the background check. There are those of us who have various high level clearances. Having those clearances require interviews with family, friends, and coworkers. It may require a polygraph. I believe they also look into your medical records, but I'm not sure about this. It requires a detailed history of where you have lived. It sometimes goes into the details of where you're traveled. Sometimes they need to verify the birthplaces of your parents if born outside the CONUS. Also, if one of your immediate family members has problems with drug addiction or trouble with the law, your clearance can be denied.

    So, you can say that those with a high level security clearances go though much more of a background check than LEOs. Yet, they require another background check, for which they pay.

    Just some notes to consider.
     

    ADR

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 17, 2011
    4,171
    You might want to consider the other half of the HQL and that is the background check. There are those of us who have various high level clearances. Having those clearances require interviews with family, friends, and coworkers. It may require a polygraph. I believe they also look into your medical records, but I'm not sure about this. It requires a detailed history of where you have lived. It sometimes goes into the details of where you're traveled. Sometimes they need to verify the birthplaces of your parents if born outside the CONUS. Also, if one of your immediate family members has problems with drug addiction or trouble with the law, your clearance can be denied.

    So, you can say that those with a high level security clearances go though much more of a background check than LEOs. Yet, they require another background check, for which they pay.

    Just some notes to consider.

    Sorry but I've been through both and that's not an accurate statement.

    Edit to clarify - With that being said, I'm not saying a clearance investigation shouldn't be sufficient for what we're discussing.
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    Sorry but I've been through both and that's not an accurate statement.

    Edit to clarify - With that being said, I'm not saying a clearance investigation shouldn't be sufficient for what we're discussing.

    Forgot to add the financial investigation and random urinalysis tests as well. And, not related to security, they can control what you invest in and limit your participation in various businesses.

    On a side note, a coworker thought she overheard me discussing a foreclosure of my residence. She called security and I had to explain that I was not going into foreclosure and that the conversation interpretation was wrong. This was after I did some research to determine what I was required to report. That was "anything they ask for" or you could lose your clearance.
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    As I said, I've been through both. You?

    Basic working level. Won't say on forum. I do the obligatory urinalysis and the OGE-450 financial stuff. SIL is MSP, so I know what he did. Will review it again at Thanksgiving diner. Also, had strict physical requirements for military aircraft. (Although too fat and old now!) Also had military training as civilian for Abrams tank to include 105/120 MM, M2, and 7.62.

    There are also hundreds of civilian and contractor test conductors at APG that have extensive weapons training. Not like police work in nature, but technical to weapons.
     

    1time

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    2,258
    Baltimore, Md
    You might want to consider the other half of the HQL and that is the background check. There are those of us who have various high level clearances. Having those clearances require interviews with family, friends, and coworkers. It may require a polygraph. I believe they also look into your medical records, but I'm not sure about this. It requires a detailed history of where you have lived. It sometimes goes into the details of where you're traveled. Sometimes they need to verify the birthplaces of your parents if born outside the CONUS. Also, if one of your immediate family members has problems with drug addiction or trouble with the law, your clearance can be denied.



    So, you can say that those with a high level security clearances go though much more of a background check than LEOs. Yet, they require another background check, for which they pay.



    Just some notes to consider.



    The results of your background check are not accessible by the state. The background check for Maryland LEO’s are have to meet MPTC standards and the state has access. It’s not a matter of which background is better, just which is accessible.
     

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