Changes to the Firearms Registration Law (DC)

rascal · Jun 8, 2016

Ack Ack said:
I've never waited more than 15 minutes for my registration cards and don't know of anyone who didn't receive theirs "on the spot" like I have. I believe the rules give them 10 days in case there's an issue with the background check.

I know quite a few people. Almost always the process is about 2-3 hours for first time, and about half that for subsequent registrations. But I do know a dozen people who came after tend days and had to return another day.

If the firearm registration has expired ( previous issued) Take NO action, no need to renew

.

FYI as if yesterday DC MPD will still not replace cards that already have an expiration date on them with a no expiration date card. meaning for example if you have to show your expired card -- as I have -- at airport or to anyone who may not be familiar with the fact that the expiry is null, you look like you are trying to present an expired registraion

swinokur · Jun 8, 2016

Since there ar no airports in DC, why would anyone need to see a DC registration card? I have never had TSA or any airline ask to see any kind of registration. Who but DC needs to know this?

Heller III struck down the renewal requirement. Only DC cops need to know this IMO.

If MPD doesn't think it's a big deal, maybe it isn't

swamplynx · Jun 9, 2016

clewisking said:
does a anyone know why you have to wait 10 days to recieve your card?

You don't. You are getting confused with the 10 day waiting period ******** for new purchases.

If you are registering something you already owned in another jurisdiction this doesn't clearly apply.

If you are registering something new, they enforce this particular infringement by having you wait 10 days after bringing in the PD219 OR you can bring in the receipt for the purchase showing the purchase date was 10+ days ago.

Just wait till the 10th day after your purchase and show up with the PD219 and the dated receipt. If it's a subsequent registration and they already have your fingerprints/background you should be in and out of the Politburo in a half hour max, one trip.

swamplynx · Jun 9, 2016

rascal said:
FYI as if yesterday DC MPD will still not replace cards that already have an expiration date on them with a no expiration date card

Weird. I got mine replaced no problem. I was in the building for another reason, figured I would swing by and get new ones. I didn't have the old ones with me so they wouldn't reprint then on the spot, but the lady said I could mail them in. Mailed them with a letter citing Heller III and about a week later my new cards with a blank expiration date showed up.

rascal · Jun 9, 2016

swinokur said:
Since there ar no airports in DC, why would anyone need to see a DC registration card? I have never had TSA or any airline ask to see any kind of registration. Who but DC needs to know this?

Heller III struck down the renewal requirement. Only DC cops need to know this IMO.

If MPD doesn't think it's a big deal, maybe it isn't

About 1/3 of persons with police powers in DC are not MPD. There are FBI uniformed and non unformed, FPS, Capitol police, NPS and half a dozen other agencies with police powers in DC.

And what od you mean just DC? There are lots of cases were other local and state jurisdictions law enforcement might need to be presented with the card. if you are stopped in Maryland on your way to Pennsylvania with gun case visible but locked in the back of your SUV, Maryland police have a right to safety check inspect the firearm (any purpose built firearm container in a vehicle is subject to no warrant safety check and inspection). Your FOPA protection in intermediate states is dependent on you proving legal possession at both point of origin and arrival. and therefore proving or asserting legal possession at your DC point of origin requires showing a DC registration.

Why would a Maryland cop think an expired gun registration is any different than an expired driver's license?

On top of that I would say half of police are not fully familiar with DC gun law. Even the firearms office of the MPD has given me incorrect answers on several question, such as legality of traveling on metro subway or bus with a unloaded firearm locked in a backpack.

DC is having people with expired cards keep them as expired, as you are explicitly instructed to do on the MPD website can in fact cause some people problems

rascal · Jun 9, 2016

swamplynx said:
Weird. I got mine replaced no problem. I was in the building for another reason, figured I would swing by and get new ones. I didn't have the old ones with me so they wouldn't reprint then on the spot, but the lady said I could mail them in. Mailed them with a letter citing Heller III and about a week later my new cards with a blank expiration date showed up.

I just got off the phone and was told (by a sergeant) I would need to come in

swinokur · Jun 9, 2016

Why would any LEO outside of DC need to see a DC gun registration?. He can run an NCIC check to see if the gun is stolen or you are a felon. End of story.

Don't show a MD cop your DC registration. Not required.

rascal · Jun 9, 2016

swamplynx said:
You don't. You are getting confused with the 10 day waiting period ******** for new purchases.

If you are registering something you already owned in another jurisdiction this doesn't clearly apply.

If you are registering something new, they enforce this particular infringement by having you wait 10 days after bringing in the PD219 OR you can bring in the receipt for the purchase showing the purchase date was 10+ days ago.

Just wait till the 10th day after your purchase and show up with the PD219 and the dated receipt. If it's a subsequent registration and they already have your fingerprints/background you should be in and out of the Politburo in a half hour max, one trip.

To be clear it is ten days from the earliest provable point of transaction, so if you order on the 5th, and the seller processed the purchase on the 7th and generate a receipt with the 7th on it, mail it on the 8h and Sykes gets it on the 12th, if you can show you placed order on your ten day began on the 5th and you can get it on the 15th. I had to get a written determination on that when a seller took a week to to locate an item I had ordered. I had DCMPD go from the order date

swinokur · Jun 9, 2016

Please point out where in the DC code there is a requirement to carry your DC gun registration card if NOT in DC.

rascal · Jun 9, 2016

swinokur said:
Please point out where in the DC code there is a requirement to carry your DC gun registration card if NOT in DC.

How is that even relevant to any of my points at all?

a) When in DC half of DC police don't fully know current DC gun law, b) a dozen other agencies that are not DC police have full normal DC arrest power in DC and don't now all the nuances of all of DC gun laws law; and c) when out of state FOPA depends on you proving your firearm is legal in your point of origin.

I have not even mentioned that Bass Pro in Maryland wants to see my DC registration before letting me handle a handgun I may wish to purchase and in Nov 2016 handing a registration to the sales guy that says expired Aug 2016 in makes me look like someone trying to put one over on them

swinokur · Jun 9, 2016

FOPA does not require you to prove you are legal. It only mandates that possession in your point of origin be legal. The assumption is you are legal until p proven otherwise. That's why LEO run a NCIC stolen firearm check and a criminal background check. I don't drive around MD with my 77r's in my car.

Outside DC, there is no requirement to prove the gun is registered. If Bass Pro does it it's a policy, not a law.,

You still didn't provide a cite for the requirement to carry the card outside DC. It might be a nicety, but not a requirement. You keep saying that in DC there are lots of LE who might not know the law, then jump to MD. If a LE guy thinks you're pulling a fast one, he can contact FRS and get straighten d out.

I've been to Bass Pro and no one asked for my 77r's for any of my firearms.

wow.

926A
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle:
Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

rascal · Jun 9, 2016

Wow. I was trying to figure out why you are jumping around with this, and I can see now you don't know the laws. You are outright wrong on 18 USC 926 (FOPA). It is what we call an affirmative defense. You have to prove you are covered under FOPA to invoke it. It does not stop you from being arrested and charged, it is a defense you can use in trial. The more you can show the officer, or if arrested the persecutor, that you are covered by FOPA, the more likely you are not to be arrested or charged.

Your implication that handing a out of state law enforcement officer a DC gun licensing document that clearly states it is "expired" is as good on that is not expired is really not true at all

And asking for a cite about a "DC requirement" has nothing to do with my point. It is not just out of state where this may mean the difference between an arrest and not, we have DC cops on this website forum who say the laws in DC are so complex and changing that many MPD officers do not know them. And if you live and work in DC as I do, you would know you can get a traffic stop by uniformed FBI, if you call about noise at night it maybe Capitol police or FPS responding instead of DC MPD

As far as Bass Pro and no one asking your for anything, there are scores of posts here, by people who have been. It is their official policy NOT to let you touch a handgun whatsoever in the store without some kind of proof. That is widely known here at MD shooters.

DC has very complex and documented arbitrary enforcement of its own gun laws. Registered DC gun owners have been arrested for single piece of brass in their car (I know one). Charges were not filed but it took a directive for Lanier to say they could arrest for that, but will not.

swinokur said:
FOPA does not require you to prove you are legal. It only mandates that possession in your point of origin be legal. The assumption is you are legal until p proven otherwise. That's why LEO run a NCIC stolen firearm check and a criminal background check. I don't drive around MD with my 77r's in my car.

Outside DC, there is no requirement to prove the gun is registered. If Bass Pro does it it's a policy, not a law.,

You still didn't provide a cite for the requirement to carry the card outside DC. It might be a nicety, but not a requirement. You keep saying that in DC there are lots of LE who might not know the law, then jump to MD. If a LE guy thinks you're pulling a fast one, he can contact FRS and get straighten d out.

I've been to Bass Pro and no one asked for my 77r's for any of my firearms.

wow.

swinokur · Jun 9, 2016

I understand an a affirmative defense.But saying you must prove you are legal to carry in DC to be covered under FOPA is just plain incorrect. Interpret as you wish.

The only thing I ever had to produce at Bass Pro was my drivers license. I wasn't forced to prove I was anything other than over 21. Not that I owned or had a firearm.

LEO outside of DC don't care whether your firearm is registered in DC. You must only prove you are covered under FOPA. So if

1. You may possess and carry in your state or place of origin. Can you possess and carry under DC law? The answer is not you but whether the law allows it. The answer is yes. criteria one satisfied.
2. Not be prohibited. If you are not prohibited, you are legal. Criteria 2 satisfied and you may raise the defense

If you can prove that, you have provided an affirmative defense.

As far as handing a MD LEO a DC document why would I? It's not required in MD, expired or not.
RIF

rbird7282 · Jun 9, 2016

rascal said:
How is that even relevant to any of my points at all?

a) When in DC half of DC police don't fully know current DC gun law, b) a dozen other agencies that are not DC police have full normal DC arrest power in DC and don't now all the nuances of all of DC gun laws law; and c) when out of state FOPA depends on you proving your firearm is legal in your point of origin.

I have not even mentioned that Bass Pro in Maryland wants to see my DC registration before letting me handle a handgun I may wish to purchase and in Nov 2016 handing a registration to the sales guy that says expired Aug 2016 in makes me look like someone trying to put one over on them

Bass Pro is run by morons. You need to find someplace else to shop. There is no way you need to carry your DC registration with you when out of DC. If you're pulled over and consent to a search of your vehicle without a warrant then that's your problem.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

swinokur · Jun 9, 2016

Bingo. A DC registration card is just a piece of paper outside DC. I don't need it to establish the fact that I MAY possess and carry in DC whether or not I have a registration or a permit . The operative word in FOPA is MAY Possess and Carry, not whether you do or not.

Like I said RIF

rascal · Jun 10, 2016

Again you did not address the plain and simple fact that not only do a lot of DC MPD not know all the current gun laws and changes (we have MPD officers on this forum who say many do not) , and presenting an officer in DC with an expired gun license is a risk no qualified citizen should have to take.

Second you do not address the fact that there are many many non MPD federal agencies who also operate as normal police in DC. I don't mean thy just happen to be some here, there are a lot, and they do normal policing with DC arrest powers on duty -- and also do so off duty.

Thirdly DC is an abnormal jurisdiction in that we have very very few legal gun owners. Maybe 4,000. Odds are a person with a firearm in DC is an illegal possessor -- and that is unique in the with the exception of a few other places. If a cop or a uniformed FBI sees a gun case in the back of your SUV in Arizona, Virginia or even Maryland it is one thing, in DC it is very different.

I am aware of all of this because my parents have vacation home in Vermont. I have to drive though Massachusetts, where expended brass, like DC is covered under the same firearm law. You may well need to present you DC registration to show you are able to possess expended brass if a shotgun shell is on the floor of your car in view

swinokur said:
I understand an a affirmative defense.But saying you must prove you are legal to carry in DC to be covered under FOPA is just plain incorrect. Interpret as you wish.

You are incorrect. FOPA means you must prove you may legally possess firearm in both point of origin and point of destination. Proving to the officer before an arrest is preferable.

only thing I ever had to produce at Bass Pro was my drivers license. I wasn't forced to prove I was anything other than over 21. Not that I owned or had a firearm

.

Again a simple search here shows many other users (including one commenter below) noting Bass has a policy of asking for FOID/HGQ/Carry license/Military ID etc.

LEO outside of DC don't care whether your firearm is registered in DC. You must only prove you are covered under FOPA. So if

1. You may possess and carry in your state or place of origin. Can you possess and carry under DC law? The answer is not you but whether the law allows it. The answer is yes. criteria one satisfied.

No you have to prove that you can, not that some people can

rascal · Jun 10, 2016

rbird7282 said:
Bass Pro is run by morons. You need to find someplace else to shop. There is no way you need to carry your DC registration with you when out of DC. .

Swinokur says he shops there, so do other MD shooters members. Why are you saying I should not? members of MDshooters go there, present their HGQ and handle pistols. Why are you saying I should not be able to if I happen to be nearby?

I agree they are assholes, but what does that have to do with it?

I am guessing you are not from DC. You need to a) cross state borders to buy ammo, bb) you need your registration with you if you have even just ammo in your car in DC, c) you need to cross state borders to go to the range. d) You need to be going direct and prove that you are going direct to any of those activities.

If you're pulled over and consent to a search of your vehicle without a warrant then that's your problem.

Anyone who uses a gun case in an SUV can have the gun case searched if it is in view. That is federal case law. Any single purpose container for firearm can be searched without consent.
http://fourthamendment.com/?p=8389

I don't use a gun case, I use tool boxes, but plenty of people do use gun cases.

swinokur · Jun 10, 2016

I don't buy from Bass Pro, I have looked at firearms there.Nothing in MD law of FOPA states you must be direct. Not a good idea tyo dally, but it doesn't specify it. You can interpret the laws as you wish, even if it's incorrect. as long as your stop is not your final destination, short stops for food or restrooms are fine.

you are Reading things into the law that are simply not there.

FOPA says MAY, not that you must or have to. big difference.

Lastly an affirmative defense requires the state to prove you aren't in compliance, not the other way around. The burden is on them, not you. even with an arrest and a charge.

oh well. interpret as you like.

rascal · Jun 11, 2016

swinokur said:
I don't buy from Bass Pro, I have looked at firearms there.

And as many customers have reported, including here, they want to see valid proof you can own a firearm before letting you hand a handgun.

Moreover of the few places that will ship internet purchased ammo to DC, they ALL require you send them a copy of your valid current license.

Nothing in MD law of FOPA states you must be direct. Not a good idea tyo dally, but it doesn't specify it. You can interpret the laws as you wish, even if it's incorrect. as long as your stop is not your final destination, short stops for food or restrooms are fine.

FOPA is controlled by case law as well. as an affirmative defense it is VERY important you establish your legality ASAP, preferably before an arrest is made. to say yes you maybe arrested, but you do have an eventual defense during trial is not a sober reason to defend the idea of an expired license being as good as a current one.

you are Reading things into the law that are simply not there.

I know the case law and I know it is preferable not to be arrested even if innocent.

FOPA says MAY, not that you must or have to. big difference.

The cop MAY arrest you, he is much less likely to do so if you can show your travel is legal.

Lastly an affirmative defense requires the state to prove you aren't in compliance, not the other way around. The burden is on them, not you. even with an arrest and a charge.

You are 100% wrong. An affirmative defense is like self defense or stand your ground. The burden is on the DEFENDENT.

The state shows the FACTS of the case. EG you are traveling through one of many jurisdictions where your possession of a handgun as a non state resident is ILLEGAL. You invoke at some point. If you do so at trial the burden is on you.

oh well. interpret as you like.

Interpret? You are factually incorrect.

swinokur · Jun 11, 2016

sure it is.

:lol2:

Changes to the Firearms Registration Law (DC)

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