HBAR vs. govt profile rules

PowPow · May 14, 2020

JohnnyE said:
My lack of proof of purchase before 10/1/13 is not a substitute for their providing evidence that I bought it after.

As a defendant, I have the right to remain silent. The government must offer evidence that demonstrates I purchased after the deadline. I have to prove NOTHING!

The state's evidence may be an eye witness to the purchase, a sting operation, a post 1/1/13 receipt, something other than my mere possession after 10/1/13.

If my lower HAS a S/N (not needed for a home build) and the S/N indicates it was made prior to 10/1/13, the ball is clearly in the government's court. I don't have to lead with that information, however. I use that to defend. The government must put on an adequate case at the outset. OTOH, if the S/N shows the lower didn't exists prior to 10/1/13, it sucks to be me.

Absolutely!

danb · May 14, 2020

erwos said:
This is a totally different question. If you believe the enumerated weapon encompassed all Mini-14s with folding stocks, the answer would be, no, it's not

I see those as one and the same question: making an enumerated weapon out of a pre-2013 weapon. I see the answer to both as no, or yes. Probably no.

Tungsten · May 14, 2020

TAstro said:
Has anyone ever heard of anyone getting in any legal trouble over Barrel profile? I’ve never heard of anything like that and I’ve shot plenty of AR’s with some cops at the range. I don’t think anyone cares one bit - and this is not implying that anyone should break the law.

I wouldn't worry about being inspected at a range. I would worry about being red flagged or arrested for something and then a prosecutor looking for absolutely anything else to nail you on so you'll plead guilty to a lesser charge.

mac1_131 · May 14, 2020

Would it have been legal to buy a non-regulated HBAR in 2012, then buy a non-HBAR upper and put it on, bypassing the 77R requirement?

I don't think so. So fast forward to now, how would same thing be legal today. I don't think so.

The OP's original idea of not putting it on until out of state is the only thing that seems legal to me. AFAIK no law possessing an upper as it is not a firearm.

mvee · May 14, 2020

mac1_131 said:
Would it have been legal to buy a non-regulated HBAR in 2012, then buy a non-HBAR upper and put it on, bypassing the 77R requirement?

I recall guidance from MDSP that it was ok to put a lightweight upper on a rifle purchased as an HBAR. This was pre-2013.

If you were to do it now it might be considered making a banned firearm.

If you did this prior to the FSA going into effect I think you would be ok.

There was also guidance from MDSP that a lower owned before the 2013 cutoff could be built in any configuration. I don’t know how that would apply here.

danb · May 14, 2020

mvee said:
There was also guidance from MDSP that a lower owned before the 2013 cutoff could be built in any configuration. I don’t know how that would apply here.

Was there?

If there was, in writing, and we could find it, it would mostly settle the debate.

I seem to recall a lot of debate on this in 2014, so I am not sure there was any guidance.

holesonpaper · May 14, 2020

Not sure it totally answers, but this is close. See the first faq...

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document ...3 - Receivers of Banned Assault Long Guns.pdf

rbird7282 · May 14, 2020

erwos said:
If they say in court "we have no evidence it was purchased before Oct 1, 2013, and found it on him May 1, 2020", you're going to have to provide the receipts. They are not gonna waste a bunch of time looking for exculpatory evidence for you.

The State would have to prove that wasn’t purchased before Oct. 1, 2013. The burden is on them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

outrider58 · May 14, 2020

holesonpaper said:
Not sure it totally answers, but this is close. See the first faq...

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document ...3 - Receivers of Banned Assault Long Guns.pdf

No one's arguing whether you can build out a pre ban "lower". The argument is whether you can build a pre ban H-BAR RIFLE into a pre ban configuration. My opinion(and I have a lot of respect for erwos's opinions), the argument is bunk. You can put any upper on a pre ban lower(gun) you want, whenever you want.

kalister1 · May 14, 2020

So we need to keep receipts for every Standard Capacity Magazine we own to prove we did NOT buy it in Maryland last week?

Vile Shadow · May 14, 2020

outrider58 said:
No one's arguing whether you can build out a pre ban "lower". The argument is whether you can build a pre ban H-BAR RIFLE into a pre ban configuration. My opinion(and I have a lot of respect for erwos's opinions), the argument is bunk. You can put any upper on a pre ban lower(gun) you want, whenever you want.

Danb hit on the issue I see though

A heavy barrel gun wouldnt have been papered regulated.... even before the firearms stupidity act... so like erwos mentioned some prick can make a case agin ya if somebody finds with yer formerly heavy barrel rifle that now has a M4 barrel on it

Frankly though.... your boom stick, far as Im concerned do whatever the hell ya want with it

Rab1515 · May 14, 2020

mac1_131 said:
Would it have been legal to buy a non-regulated HBAR in 2012, then buy a non-HBAR upper and put it on, bypassing the 77R requirement?

I don't think so. So fast forward to now, how would same thing be legal today. I don't think so.

The OP's original idea of not putting it on until out of state is the only thing that seems legal to me. AFAIK no law possessing an upper as it is not a firearm.

Yes, that would be totally legal.

outrider58 · May 14, 2020

kalister1 said:
So we need to keep receipts for every Standard Capacity Magazine we own to prove we did NOT buy it in Maryland last week?

I think Pow Pow's point is, no, you don't(if I'm not mistaken).

IMHO, everyone's worrying about superfluous sh!t. We shouldn't even be discussing this in public(I was discussing this in private. They through me in public!).

outrider58 · May 14, 2020

Sling Blade said:
Danb hit on the issue I see though

A heavy barrel gun wouldnt have been papered regulated.... even before the firearms stupidity act... so like erwos mentioned some prick can make a case agin ya if somebody finds with yer formerly heavy barrel rifle that now has a M4 barrel on it

Frankly though.... your boom stick, far as Im concerned do whatever the hell ya want with it

Was there a difference between the two, paperworkwise, before the ban? I truly don't know...

PowPow · May 14, 2020

outrider58 said:
I think Pow Pow's point is, no, you don't(if I'm not mistaken).

You are not mistaken.

As for the mags, possession of mags that hold more than 10 rounds is not a crime in Maryland. It's more likely that the entity that sold or transferred them would be a target of the State. The burden is on the State to prove that the seller or transferor of said items was in violation of Maryland law.

hobiecat590 · May 14, 2020

So any pre 2013 lower can legally be configured with a post non HBAR upper in MD?

I ask because a friend of mine bought a PSA non-HBAR upper last year by mistake and want's to install it in a pre 2013 lower and install the bull barrel pre 2013 upper on a 2019 lower to stay legal.

Would he be still legal to do the swap or to be safe, sell/trade the non HBAR upper for an HBAR upper.

holesonpaper · May 14, 2020

outrider58 said:
No one's arguing whether you can build out a pre ban "lower". The argument is whether you can build a pre ban H-BAR RIFLE into a pre ban configuration. My opinion(and I have a lot of respect for erwos's opinions), the argument is bunk. You can put any upper on a pre ban lower(gun) you want, whenever you want.

In my opinion, I agree. With a pre-2013 lower you can do as you please. However if it started as a rifle, the only thing you can’t do is build a pistol. If you want short, you must SBR following the post 2013 length restriction (or whatever restrictions at the time of form 1).

My first AR, was a non-hbar rifle and was cash and carry. At that time, to my knowledge there wasn’t much difference between hbar and not. That was part of the confusion most FFLs had around October 2013.

erwos · May 14, 2020

kalister1 said:
So we need to keep receipts for every Standard Capacity Magazine we own to prove we did NOT buy it in Maryland last week?

There's no ban on possessing high caps. There is definitely a ban on possessing non-HBAR AR-15s. That ban has exceptions to it in the form of grandfathering. It is not the same situation at all.

outrider58 · May 14, 2020

hobiecat590 said:
So any pre 2013 lower can legally be configured with a post non HBAR upper in MD?

I ask because a friend of mine bought a PSA non-HBAR upper last year by mistake and want's to install it in a pre 2013 lower and install the bull barrel pre 2013 upper on a 2019 lower to stay legal.

Would he be still legal to do the swap or to be safe, sell/trade the non HBAR upper for an HBAR upper.

I see no reason why it would be illegal. I've put folders on pre ban Ars in the past. Who cares?!

....and for that matter, you can buy as many pencil barreled uppers you want, regardless of whether you even own a pre ban gun(or lower), as long as you don't mate that banned upper on a post 2013 lower IN MARYLAND. Take it into the free world and have at it. The stupid law only pertains to Md(and any other F'd up state.).

Bob A · May 14, 2020

It's fascinating to view Maryland's deliberately confusing and ridiculous gun laws, with aspects that are basically unenforced, and probably unenforceable - at least until we go Full Weimar - become such extensively discussed topics.

The GA puts the Fear into every law-abiding gun owner, and at the same time refuses to enforce the gun laws, or for that matter most of the laws, against the Protected Thug Classes. ATV flash mobs blocking the streets and intimidating the locals; Squeegee Bois shaking down the motorists; streetcorner Pharmacists and their enforcers; illegal immigrant rapists and child molesters; they all seem to get a pass. You can't even talk about them or you are branded a skinhead racist fanatic.

Such a cool place to live!

HBAR vs. govt profile rules

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