NFA Vs MD requirements

ironpony · May 4, 2020

SkiPatrolDude said:
I've looked up becoming an FFL. The problem became zoning. I would not be able to operate an FFL out of my house. If you can swing a storefront or have a personal business address, perhaps this would be easier.

Yup on the zoning.

I'm still wondering about the legality of a State (MD) changing the Federal rules (>29" directly through BATFE) to their liking? Yes, a state may have more strict rules than the Federal rules but to have the ability to work in cooperation of a federal agency baffles me. Circa 2013 - 2014 some <29 got through and many were disapproved. Is >29" in COMAR and where exactly is this within BATFE. What might Frosh change this to this year?
I hope I made my concern clear.

Good Luck OP, enjoy the hobby!

erwos · May 4, 2020

ironpony said:
I'm still wondering about the legality of a State (MD) changing the Federal rules (>29" directly through BATFE) to their liking?

They're not changing anything. The BATFE is simply not going to approve you to own a rifle that's not legal in your state, like they do in the case of every other state.

outobie · May 4, 2020

cokebuck said:
You SBR your lower which has your serial number. Once you have your tax stamp you can put any barrel length on your lower (as long as OAL is 29" in MD)

ironpony said:
Yup on the zoning.

I'm still wondering about the legality of a State (MD) changing the Federal rules (>29" directly through BATFE) to their liking? Yes, a state may have more strict rules than the Federal rules but to have the ability to work in cooperation of a federal agency baffles me. Circa 2013 - 2014 some <29 got through and many were disapproved. Is >29" in COMAR and where exactly is this within BATFE. What might Frosh change this to this year?
I hope I made my concern clear.

Good Luck OP, enjoy the hobby!

sooo...zoning...that was the one thing I saw in that link I posted that seemed nebulous. what zoning do I need for this to work?
I'm a homeowner in anne arundel county in a residential community. where do I go and what zoning do I need?

ironpony · May 4, 2020

erwos said:
They're not changing anything. The BATFE is simply not going to approve you to own a rifle that's not legal in your state, like they do in the case of every other state.

I’m curious if a NICS check would give approval for a pistol not yet on the MD roster. Apples and oranges but I’m surprised Feds would be familiar with state laws. Or give a crap.

OP, you would need some type of commercial zoning. I’m Residential Ag here in Davidsonville and no go.

erwos · May 4, 2020

ironpony said:
I’m curious if a NICS check would give approval for a pistol not yet on the MD roster. Apples and oranges but I’m surprised Feds would be familiar with state laws. Or give a crap.

NICS is a slightly different problem, because they're checking on you, not the gun. The NFA branch is checking on you AND making sure you can legally own a gun of that type in the state.

outrider58 · May 4, 2020

erwos said:
NICS is a slightly different problem, because they're checking on you, not the gun. The NFA branch is checking on you AND making sure you can legally own a gun of that type in the state.

Yeah. Their job is 'people enforcement', not gun law enforcement.

dblas · May 4, 2020

ironpony said:
I’m curious if a NICS check would give approval for a pistol not yet on the MD roster. Apples and oranges but I’m surprised Feds would be familiar with state laws. Or give a crap.

OP, you would need some type of commercial zoning. I’m Residential Ag here in Davidsonville and no go.

NICS check on a handgun in Maryland is done by MSP licensing division, they would halt it if it's not on the roster and not even bother with the NICS check.

lazarus · May 4, 2020

cokebuck said:
You SBR your lower which has your serial number. Once you have your tax stamp you can put any barrel length on your lower (as long as OAL is 29" in MD)

Correction, that matches what you submitted to the ATF in your paperwork.

You cannot attach any barrel length or caliber unless it is 16” or over. If it’s an SBR it has to be on that paperwork you sent to the ATF. You can amend it later, but it can’t be something you didn’t tell the ATF.

lazarus · May 4, 2020

ironpony said:
Yup on the zoning.

I'm still wondering about the legality of a State (MD) changing the Federal rules (>29" directly through BATFE) to their liking? Yes, a state may have more strict rules than the Federal rules but to have the ability to work in cooperation of a federal agency baffles me. Circa 2013 - 2014 some <29 got through and many were disapproved. Is >29" in COMAR and where exactly is this within BATFE. What might Frosh change this to this year?
I hope I made my concern clear.

Good Luck OP, enjoy the hobby!

Yes it’s in COMAR. It was added through the Firearm Safety Act of 2013. I’d have to search COMAR to pull up the relevant public safety section.

It isn’t with anywhere in the ATF. The examiner checks your state laws before approving your tax stamp.

Frosh can’t change crap without MDLeg passing a new law. It wasn’t administrative, it was legislatively created.

lazarus · May 4, 2020

outobie said:
the more I read about this I'm beginning to think becoming my own FFL may make sense. it seems like FFL's are exempt from many of these silly new regulations

what are your thoughts on using a service like this https://rocketffl.com/ffl-requirements/ to become my own FFL with SOT? looks like a hassle but in the end I'll be fully legal and somewhat insulated from maryland restrictions and may even be able to assist others in my shooting club with transfers.

You’ll need to file business taxes with the IRS and meet IRS rules for being a business. IE net profit at least once in the previous 3 years. You don’t manage that within 3 years they consider you a hobbyist.

Which would, I’d bet my bottom dollar, have the ATF regime your FFL because you aren’t in the business of selling/transferring firearms.

Now I guess you could fudge your 1040 schedule C by not writing off all your expenses and just doing a few transfers a year and paying the tax on the few hundred bucks you are making without reporting any expenses. Nothing says you HAVE to report losses.

No idea on state rules. Other than both feds and state will require you to have a business front, posted business hours and be open to the public (even if only by appointment).

Kitchen table FFLs ended back in the 90s. Now it’s a PITA if you just want an FFL for yourself.

Pinecone · May 5, 2020

lazarus said:
Correction, that matches what you submitted to the ATF in your paperwork.

You cannot attach any barrel length or caliber unless it is 16” or over. If it’s an SBR it has to be on that paperwork you sent to the ATF. You can amend it later, but it can’t be something you didn’t tell the ATF.

No, if you SBRed it with a 10.5" barrel, and you change that (still less than 16") you are fine, as long as you can turn it back into a 10.5".

If it is a permanent change, you are supposed to inform the BATFE.

Pinecone · May 5, 2020

lazarus said:
You’ll need to file business taxes with the IRS and meet IRS rules for being a business. IE net profit at least once in the previous 3 years. You don’t manage that within 3 years they consider you a hobbyist.

Kitchen table FFLs ended back in the 90s. Now it’s a PITA if you just want an FFL for yourself.

BATFE ended them by requiring the premise be zoned for business use.

They also require reasonable posted hours, and be able to do a no notice visit anytime within the posted hours.

It was not a tax thing. Your business could easily be a Sub S or Sole Proprietor, and you just add the info to your return. You would only pay taxes on an y profit.

Although, the IRS wants to see SOME profits on a Sub S, or they will deem it a hobby, and disallow all the deductions. The rule of thumb used to be show a profit within 5 years.

And the business had to be able to make a profit. Previously people would do things like claim their racing was a business. And spend and write off thousands, when there was no prize money or only small monetary prizes. So no possible profit.

fabsroman · May 6, 2020

Pinecone said:
BATFE ended them by requiring the premise be zoned for business use.

They also require reasonable posted hours, and be able to do a no notice visit anytime within the posted hours.

It was not a tax thing. Your business could easily be a Sub S or Sole Proprietor, and you just add the info to your return. You would only pay taxes on an y profit.

Although, the IRS wants to see SOME profits on a Sub S, or they will deem it a hobby, and disallow all the deductions. The rule of thumb used to be show a profit within 5 years.

And the business had to be able to make a profit. Previously people would do things like claim their racing was a business. And spend and write off thousands, when there was no prize money or only small monetary prizes. So no possible profit.

The Hobby Loss rule applies to all businesses, whether it be a sole proprietorship, LLC, partnership, S Corp, C Corp, or whatever other business entity there is out there.

If a business produces a profit in any 3 out of 5 year period, the IRS will not question the business motive of the owners. If there is no profit shown for 3 year out of any 5 year period, then the IRS starts looking at factors and tests the validity of the business based upon those factors (e.g., does the taxpayer have another job, does the taxpayer have the expertise for the business in question, does the taxpayer keep adequate business records, does the taxpayer have employees, does the taxpayer use professional services, etc.). If something is determined to be a hobby, then any losses taken for prior years are disallowed. Additional taxes owed as a result are subject to the non-payment penalty and interest for however many years they were owed. It sucks to have business losses disallowed under the Hobby Loss rule.

The rule came about in the 60's because rich people that had spouses that liked horses decided to go into the horse breeding business so they could deduct everything related to the horse farm that their spouse so enjoyed. They were offsetting tons of other income with these business losses, and Congress finally said NOPE.

Always somebody out there that just has to be a hog and then we get more tax laws. Just like the Alternative Minimum Tax that Congress forgot to index for inflation and then the passive activity loss rule and three different buckets of income/loss that can barely be offset against one another.

fabsroman · May 6, 2020

As far as the entire HBAR issue is concerned, until I see something authoritative in black and white that an AR-15 SBR after 9/30/2013 does not need to be HBAR, it is my opinion that an AR-15 SBR on a post 9/30/2013 lower needs to be HBAR. That is how I am building up my SBR rifles.

There is some wiggle room if the rifle is not .223, but I'm not sure the AR-15 ban states .223. Plenty of AR-15 rifles out there in other cartridges. I will leave my opinion on this out of the matter, but this is where Frosh can have an effect on this "legislation".

Pinecone · May 7, 2020

fabsroman said:
The Hobby Loss rule applies to all businesses, whether it be a sole proprietorship, LLC, partnership, S Corp, C Corp, or whatever other business entity there is out there.

If a business produces a profit in any 3 out of 5 year period, the IRS will not question the business motive of the owners. If there is no profit shown for 3 year out of any 5 year period, then the IRS starts looking at factors and tests the validity of the business based upon those factors (e.g., does the taxpayer have another job, does the taxpayer have the expertise for the business in question, does the taxpayer keep adequate business records, does the taxpayer have employees, does the taxpayer use professional services, etc.). If something is determined to be a hobby, then any losses taken for prior years are disallowed. Additional taxes owed as a result are subject to the non-payment penalty and interest for however many years they were owed. It sucks to have business losses disallowed under the Hobby Loss rule.

The rule came about in the 60's because rich people that had spouses that liked horses decided to go into the horse breeding business so they could deduct everything related to the horse farm that their spouse so enjoyed. They were offsetting tons of other income with these business losses, and Congress finally said NOPE.

Always somebody out there that just has to be a hog and then we get more tax laws. Just like the Alternative Minimum Tax that Congress forgot to index for inflation and then the passive activity loss rule and three different buckets of income/loss that can barely be offset against one another.

Hmm, we never had issues with our C-corp. And tax wise, we only made money one year out of 13.

Pinecone · May 7, 2020

fabsroman said:
As far as the entire HBAR issue is concerned, until I see something authoritative in black and white that an AR-15 SBR after 9/30/2013 does not need to be HBAR, it is my opinion that an AR-15 SBR on a post 9/30/2013 lower needs to be HBAR. That is how I am building up my SBR rifles.

There is some wiggle room if the rifle is not .223, but I'm not sure the AR-15 ban states .223. Plenty of AR-15 rifles out there in other cartridges. I will leave my opinion on this out of the matter, but this is where Frosh can have an effect on this "legislation".

I agree with you.

And no, the AR-15 line does NOT state caliber. Unlike some other lines, such as the Mini 14 Folding stock, which is specific to .223.

outrider58 · May 7, 2020

I always thought the determining factor was being a "copycat" of the enumerated banned firearms listed in the bill/law.

Pinecone · May 7, 2020

outrider58 said:
I always thought the determining factor was being a "copycat" of the enumerated banned firearms listed in the bill/law.

You should know better.

It would EITHER be a COPY or IMITATION of an enumerated firearm.

OR

A COPY CAT, which is the 29" rule, and evil features, that only applies to centerfire rifles.

Dogabutila · May 7, 2020

fabsroman said:
As far as the entire HBAR issue is concerned, until I see something authoritative in black and white that an AR-15 SBR after 9/30/2013 does not need to be HBAR, it is my opinion that an AR-15 SBR on a post 9/30/2013 lower needs to be HBAR. That is how I am building up my SBR rifles.

There is some wiggle room if the rifle is not .223, but I'm not sure the AR-15 ban states .223. Plenty of AR-15 rifles out there in other cartridges. I will leave my opinion on this out of the matter, but this is where Frosh can have an effect on this "legislation".

It's my understanding that under the MD law a SBR falls under the definition of handgun,

(n) Handgun.-

(1) "Handgun" means a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

with a barrel under 16 inches. In looking at the list of regulated firearms § 5-101 states

(1) a handgun; or

(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon:

Under which (xv) Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle; is listed.

It seems to me that an SBR is squarely under 1, and that the "or" without an "and" implies that anything that falls under the first cannot fall under the second. I'm not a lawyer and this isn't black and white though.

outrider58 · May 7, 2020

Pinecone said:
You should know better.

It would EITHER be a COPY or IMITATION of an enumerated firearm.

OR

A COPY CAT, which is the 29" rule, and evil features, that only applies to centerfire rifles.

Then, if you please, explain the origin of the "29" rule".

Last I checked, we weren't talking about center fire firearms.

The rest is semantics.

NFA Vs MD requirements

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