PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    Not a bad analysis. I'm sitting with the catbirds right now on my app (pre-stay) but there are no guarantees here. For sure if you do nothing to preserve your rights you lose legal standing

    esqappellate, from what we seen so far it looks like a better place to be then the group that applied after the stay. But let me ask you this. This temp stay will be lifted at some point I'm guessing around the end of May. If the state is still not getting their way and move forward with the appeal in the 4th at some point then will then ask the 4th for another stay?

    If that is true, wouldn't there be a window between the end of this stay and when the next stay may start that will give these people that have been getting back their app's a chance to resubmit during this time between stays?

    Would this time window between the temp stay ending and the stay from the 4th starting be a day, or a week?

    Or does the state have it set up where as soon as one stay ends the other starts where there is not a window of no stay that people can take advantage of?
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    For our Legal Eagles I have a question about the semantics of the *Non-Denial Denial* and the Stay.

    Is the MSP. OBLIGATED to refuse on G&S grounds , or simply PERMITTED to do so ?
    They are obligated to follow the law. G&S is still the law with the stay in place
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    esqappellate, from what we seen so far it looks like a better place to be then the group that applied after the stay. But let me ask you this. This temp stay will be lifted at some point I'm guessing around the end of May. If the state is still not getting their way and move forward with the appeal in the 4th at some point then will then ask the 4th for another stay?

    If that is true, wouldn't there be a window between the end of this stay and when the next stay may start that will give these people that have been getting back their app's a chance to resubmit during this time between stays?

    Would this time window between the temp stay ending and the stay from the 4th starting be a day, or a week?

    Or does the state have it set up where as soon as one stay ends the other starts where there is not a window of no stay that people can take advantage of?

    What the state is doing here with respect to the prestay apps is a bit weird. The judge stayed his march 5 order as amended. Read the order The stay thus applies to all the apps. As Ive Said before the only reason imho that the prestay apps arent being returned is that they cashed the checks and began to process. They can't return those checks so they will sit on those apps and not grant or deny. At some point those apps will probably be just denied if the stay remains in place

    If judge Legg lifts the stay the state can ask the ca4 for a stay and that stay if they get it will likewise relate back to march 5. The state would probably just keep doing what they are now doing for their own reasons
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    They returned the aps and checks to try to trick people into not demanding their constitutional right. Its as simple as that. If you can't win honestly, you try trickery.

    I'm pretty sure the down side is it creates still another group that may possibly have some standing of some sort in the long future of this story. If you got your check back and do nothing, you have opted out of this group.


    I'm thinking that applicants who had their checks cashed are sitting in the catbird's seat ... much better off than those who got them back.

    If the stay is lifted, you guys will be the first to receive your CCW permits. If the state tries some kooky snit, your legal standing is probably better than anyone else without the nifty paperwork in hand.

    You could be right about the "Catbird seat", as far as these people did not hear any bad news just yet so we have this opportunity to hope the glass is half full as we keep our fingers crossed hoping for good news.

    But it may also just be that we are not getting disappointed just yet. When they deposited our checks I guess that obligates them to process our app's the long way by going through the motions of the investigation.

    esqappellate, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say that if/when the states get their stays it did not matter when they received the app's?

    I think the people that applied before the stay that seem to be having investigation being performed on their app's will still suffer the same fate and receive the same "Dear John" letter from the state with no G&S.

    Assuming we will win in the end, I think the MSP/state can still turn down any app that does not have their G&S as long as it happens before the stays end.

    Just like if the state changed any law. In MD laws officially change either July 1st or October 1st, correct? So even if a law changed, you do not have to follow that new law until the official law change date. I think that is how it goes.


    Just like if the state passed a new law that said no one can drive blue cars on Maryland roads. This new law will go into effect July 1st. Until July 1st you can drive all of the blue cars you want on MD roads. But after July 1st you can't. I think that how these stays work.


    Judge Legg said they can't use G&S, but during the times the judge and attorneys are still going through the motions and stays are in place (this change is on hold), the MSP can proceed just as they always have.


    If and when the stays are lifted and they did not get their way and lost their case, then they will no longer consider G&S. But until that day I think they still can as much as they want.



    Also I think if for whatever reason judge Legg’s stay is lifted and the 4th did not want to give the state another stay during the time of the appeal, I think then the MSP will also have to stop using G&S during this time. If they win their appeal that can go back to using G&S.



    But I think what will happen is the temp stay will lift.



    The state will still be appealing because judge Legg will uphold his rulling.


    The state will request a stay from the 4th during their appeal so they can continue using G&S during their appeal. And we will not know the outcome of this until the appeal is over. And will not get CCW's until the appeal is over and thats only if the state looses.


    But I will be very suprised if I don't get turned down within the next 2 months where I will also have to reapply if we win.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    esqappellate, from what we seen so far it looks like a better place to be then the group that applied after the stay. But let me ask you this. This temp stay will be lifted at some point I'm guessing around the end of May. If the state is still not getting their way and move forward with the appeal in the 4th at some point then will then ask the 4th for another stay?

    If that is true, wouldn't there be a window between the end of this stay and when the next stay may start that will give these people that have been getting back their app's a chance to resubmit during this time between stays?

    Would this time window between the temp stay ending and the stay from the 4th starting be a day, or a week?

    Or does the state have it set up where as soon as one stay ends the other starts where there is not a window of no stay that people can take advantage of?

    What the state is doing here with respect to the prestay apps is a bit weird. The judge stayed his march 5 order as amended. Read the order The stay thus applies to all the apps. As Ive said before the only reason imho that the prestay apps arent being returned is that they cashed the checks and began to process. They can't return those checks so they will sit on them and not grant or deny. At some point if the stay is still in place those prestay apps will just be denied

    If judge Legg lifts the stay the state can ask the ca4 for a stay and that stay if they get it will likewise relate back to march 5. The state would probably just keep doing what they are now doing for their own reasons
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,172
    Outside the Gates
    Here's a problem that the state could have already created ... suppose there was someone that they wanted to grant to in the early group ... as I understand it, granting one person and denying another in the same group based on an arbitrary criteria gives the second person legal standing that can only be undone by the courts.

    If someone from the middle of that group has been granted a permit, it would be the biggest secret in MD right now.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Here's a problem that the state could have already created ... suppose there was someone that they wanted to grant to in the early group ... as I understand it, granting one person and denying another in the same group based on an arbitrary criteria gives the second person legal standing that can only be undone by the courts.

    If someone from the middle of that group has been granted a permit, it would be the biggest secret in MD right now.

    They can continue to apply G&S and grant if G&S is present
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    It not about "now that they deposited he checks they must investigate/deny" it's the LAW they do it this way.

    There isn't any provision for making up a new process on the fly, not to my knowledge. Plus, regardless of what the sympathizers around here are saying, the "process" (as it SHOULD be done) is pretty much a joke. The randomness at which people are called for interviews and the wild swing in line of questioning duringbsaid interview is evidence of a broken system.
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    What the state is doing here with respect to the prestay apps is a bit weird. The judge stayed his march 5 order as amended. Read the order The stay thus applies to all the apps. As Ive Said before the only reason imho that the prestay apps arent being returned is that they cashed the checks and began to process. They can't return those checks so they will sit on those apps and not grant or deny

    If judge Legg lifts the stay the state can ask the ca4 for a stay and that stay if they get it will likewise relate back to march 5. The state would probably just keep doing what they are now doing for their own reasons

    Right, but when you say "What the state is doing here with respect to the pre-stay apps is a bit weird." I assume you mean the part about sitting on them instead of returning them?

    I also want to ask why we think they are sitting on the apps? I ask because it looks as if they are not sitting on them for the most part because people are getting calls and face to face interviews.

    Even if we did have a G&S that satisfies the MSP and it was OK with them that we were issued a CCW’s, they tell us from the start this process takes up to 90 days. I’m guessing we really can’t make any assumption on what they may be doing until we see the 90 day mark roll around and if then we still did not see any action from the MSP.

    Because of the steps I’m betting that this is just a time consuming process.




    • · You send in your app.

    • · 3-5 days after they receive it they deposit the check. (5 days)

    • · The app sits on the end of a desk for a week or two before it gets assigned to a trooper. (14 days)

    • · Another week or two goes by as the assigned trooper works it into their schedule. (14 days)

    • · They give the applicant a call to set up a date to meet (another week or so) (3-10 days)

    • · After the meet the trooper will write a detailed report about their investigation they did on the applicant, to include the statement all references made about the applicant, trooper’s opinion on how the applicant presented themselves, (were they friendly or hostile), and if they found the reasoning behind the request as a G&S with whatever guidelines they follow when it comes to then "Knowing it when they see it" in their opinion. (14 days)

    • · The application with the report then sits on some other desk for a week or two, or more. I think it’s safe to say this board that makes the final approvals only meets so many times each year and they most likely pile up the app’s and when the board meets (say every 60 days) they go through all of the completed investigated app's/reports to approve or deny the apps in the pile. (30 days)
    Your thoughts?
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    It not about "now that they deposited he checks they must investigate/deny" it's the LAW they do it this way.

    There isn't any provision for making up a new process on the fly, not to my knowledge. Plus, regardless of what the sympathizers around here are saying, the "process" (as it SHOULD be done) is pretty much a joke. The randomness at which people are called for interviews and the wild swing in line of questioning duringbsaid interview is evidence of a broken system.

    Oh, I quite agree with that. They are supposed to process an application and grant or deny it, not return it unprocessed and without a grant or deny determination because of a G&S determination. As to what they are doing now, it is just speculation on our parts. Everyone who filed pre-stay got their checks cashed (it would appear). Some pre-stay people are getting calls and their references checked -- some are not (me, for example).

    It does not appear that any of the pre-stay filers have had actual denials on G&S. Don't know why, but it may be just a matter of time. With the stay in place those apps can be denied on G&S grounds. It appears that everyone who filed post-stay is getting their apps returned for G&S reasons, rather than processed. The state is just not going to be bothered to process those apps. until or unless they have to. As to the ones they have cashed the checks for, well, those apps can't be just returned, so my speculation is that that some apps are being processed with calls, etc, some are just sitting there. Why the disparate treatment? I can only guess that some barracks are less busy than others. Will those pre-stay apps get denied for G&S reasons. Probably so if the stay remains in place long enough.
     

    Broadside

    Active Member
    Mar 20, 2012
    305
    Virginia
    As to the ones they have cashed the checks for, well, those apps can't be just returned, so my speculation is that that some apps are being processed with calls, etc, some are just sitting there. Why the disparate treatment? I can only guess that some barracks are less busy than others. Will those pre-stay apps get denied for G&S reasons. Probably so if the stay remains in place long enough.

    My guess, and it is just a guess, is that investigations are farmed out to each barracks. The Trooper in charge of the barrack has the option to start the investigation or wait for the FBI background check to be completed before starting the investigation.

    I don't think the FBI background check is instant, I think it can take a month or more depending on the FBI backlog. So it's possible that certain barracks haven't even started the investigations for the applications they've received.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    My guess, and it is just a guess, is that investigations are farmed out to each barracks. The Trooper in charge of the barrack has the option to start the investigation or wait for the FBI background check to be completed before starting the investigation.

    I don't think the FBI background check is instant, I think it can take a month or more depending on the FBI backlog. So it's possible that certain barracks haven't even started the investigations for the applications they've received.

    Hadn't factored that in!! You might be on to something.

    If the opportunity presents itself this afternoon, I may ask.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    My guess, and it is just a guess, is that investigations are farmed out to each barracks. The Trooper in charge of the barrack has the option to start the investigation or wait for the FBI background check to be completed before starting the investigation.

    I don't think the FBI background check is instant, I think it can take a month or more depending on the FBI backlog. So it's possible that certain barracks haven't even started the investigations for the applications they've received.

    FBI checks are very fast now and one reason is Livescan technology. The days of month long background checks are over.
     

    Merlin

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 31, 2009
    3,953
    Carroll County, Maryland
    Oh, I quite agree with that. They are supposed to process an application and grant or deny it, not return it unprocessed and without a grant or deny determination because of a G&S determination. As to what they are doing now, it is just speculation on our parts. Everyone who filed pre-stay got their checks cashed (it would appear). Some pre-stay people are getting calls and their references checked -- some are not (me, for example).

    It does not appear that any of the pre-stay filers have had actual denials on G&S. Don't know why, but it may be just a matter of time. With the stay in place those apps can be denied on G&S grounds. It appears that everyone who filed post-stay is getting their apps returned for G&S reasons, rather than processed. The state is just not going to be bothered to process those apps. until or unless they have to. As to the ones they have cashed the checks for, well, those apps can't be just returned, so my speculation is that that some apps are being processed with calls, etc, some are just sitting there. Why the disparate treatment? I can only guess that some barracks are less busy than others. Will those pre-stay apps get denied for G&S reasons. Probably so if the stay remains in place long enough.

    Right. When sending the app's back they are putting a very nice bow on it with the way they are doing it. As if they are just a nice bunch of people looking out for you and your money and don't want you to waist it. Trust me, If they are doing whatever they are doing it for them, not you.
     

    Maryland Hunter

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 1, 2008
    3,194
    As Ive Said before the only reason imho that the prestay apps arent being returned is that they cashed the checks and began to process. They can't return those checks so they will sit on those apps and not grant or deny. At some point those apps will probably be just denied if the stay remains in place

    A co-worker just told me today that his pre-stay app was just returned, and a new check cut to him from MSP, as they had already cashed his. He applied right after Wollard, but before the temp stay.

    MH
     

    yellowsled

    Retired C&R Addict
    Jun 22, 2009
    9,348
    Palm Beach, Fl
    A co-worker just told me today that his pre-stay app was just returned, and a new check cut to him from MSP, as they had already cashed his. He applied right after Wollard, but before the temp stay.

    MH

    The hell with that, I will go right back to the post office and resend it with confirmation or certified. I cant stand how MSP is playing this game so their stats dont go down. :tdown:
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,915
    Messages
    7,258,424
    Members
    33,348
    Latest member
    Eric_Hehl

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom