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  • Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
    Staff member
    Admin
    Moderator
    May 22, 2005
    122,848
    You are allowed to have the firearm after 8 days if the State Police has not responded to the paperwork. MSP didn't ret the paperwork when I bought my Ruger Mk II so the dealer released it to me. Perfectly legal.

    A minor correction for your letter.....the provision for the transport law were not altered after last year's session. It is still illegal to stop and take a whiz if you have a handgun in the vehicle :mad54: Guess you better get a big bottle for the car :rolleyes:
     

    UNCLE WAWA

    Active Member
    May 16, 2005
    462
    FREDNECK,MD
    :party29: THANK YOU THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT !!
    SEND THE LETTERS. LET OUR LAWMAKERS KNOW HOW WE FEEL :mad:


    YES, THE REP YOU SENT THE LETTER TO IS BUT ONE VOTE IF WE ALL SENT LETTERS THE ONE COULD BECOME MANY AND OVERCOME THE LOUD MINORITY WHICH FILLS THE PAPERS WITH B.S.:eek:

    GOOD JOB LET'S ALL CONTINUE SO WE MIGHT SEE AN END TO OUTDATED LAWS.

    UNCLE WAWA
     

    Micro

    Member
    Dec 6, 2005
    22
    Easton
    Norton said:
    You are allowed to have the firearm after 8 days if the State Police has not responded to the paperwork. MSP didn't ret the paperwork when I bought my Ruger Mk II so the dealer released it to me. Perfectly legal.

    A minor correction for your letter.....the provision for the transport law were not altered after last year's session. It is still illegal to stop and take a whiz if you have a handgun in the vehicle :mad54: Guess you better get a big bottle for the car :rolleyes:

    Norton, thanks for that correction. I was sure I had read that the provision had passed in the 2005 session and took effect in July or thereabouts. In the meantime, here's the law, as I can find it, related to the waiting period. [You can certainly understand the reluctance of a dealer to go out on a limb -- it's a $10,000 fine and up to 5 years in prison, if they transfer a gun to someone who's not supposed to have one.]:

    § 5-122. Disapproval of firearm application.

    (a) Grounds.- The Secretary shall disapprove a firearm application if:

    (1) the Secretary determines that the firearm applicant supplied false information or made a false statement;

    (2) the Secretary determines that the firearm application is not properly completed; or

    (3) the Secretary receives written notification from the firearm applicant's licensed attending physician that
    the firearm applicant suffers from a mental disorder and is a danger to the firearm applicant or to another.

    (b) Notice.-

    (1) If the Secretary disapproves a firearm application, the Secretary shall notify the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor in writing of the disapproval within 7 days after the date that the executed firearm

    application is forwarded to the Secretary by certified mail or facsimile machine.

    (2) After notifying the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor under paragraph (1) of this subsection, the Secretary shall notify the prospective purchaser, lessee, or transferee in writing of the disapproval.

    (3) The date when the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor forwards the executed firearm application to the Secretary by certified mail or by facsimile machine is the first day of the 7-day period allowed for notice of

    disapproval to the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor.

    [An. Code 1957, art. 27, § 442(i); 2003, ch. 5, § 2.]

    § 5-123. Time for licensee to complete transactions.

    (a) Seven-day waiting period.- A licensee may not sell, rent, or transfer a regulated firearm until after 7 days following the time a firearm application is executed by the firearm applicant, in triplicate, and the

    original is forwarded by the prospective seller or transferor to the Secretary.

    (b) Completion required in 90 days.- A licensee shall complete the sale, rental, or transfer of a regulated firearm within 90 days after the firearm application was stamped by the Secretary as not being disapproved.

    (c) Incomplete transactions.-

    (1) If the sale, rental, or transfer of a regulated firearm is not completed within 90 days after the firearm application was stamped by the Secretary as not being disapproved, a licensee shall return the firearm
    application to the Secretary within 7 days.

    (2) The Secretary shall void a firearm application returned under paragraph (1) of this subsection as an incomplete sale, rental, or transfer.

    (d) Notification of completed transaction.-

    (1) (i) A licensee who sells, rents, or transfers a regulated firearm in compliance with this subtitle shall forward a copy of the written notification of the completed transaction to the Secretary within 7 days after delivery of the regulated firearm.

    (ii) The notification shall contain an identifying description of the regulated firearm, including its caliber, make, model, any manufacturer's serial number, and any other special or peculiar characteristic or marking by which the regulated firearm may be identified.

    (2) The Secretary shall maintain a permanent record of all notifications received of completed sales, rentals, and transfers of regulated firearms in the State.

    [An. Code 1957, art. 27, § 442(c), (l), (m); 2003, ch. 5, § 2.]
     

    Jim Sr

    R.I.P.
    Jun 18, 2005
    6,898
    Annapolis MD
    From my files / News letter

    2005 Regular Session bill information current as of March 16, 2005


    HB-0527 Public Safety - Transporting Sporting Firearms
    http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/billfile/hb0527.htm
    http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/bills/hb/hb0527f.pdf
    http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/fnotes/bil_0007/hb0527.pdf
    Heard 3/9
    Senate Action No Action
    Synopsis:
    Modifying a specified exemption from the prohibition against the wearing, carrying, or transporting of specified firearms to allow stops along the way to and from specified activities for rest and refreshment.

    HB-1211 Citizens' Protection Act of 2005 (Prior Year Introduction As: HB 859/04 - JUD)
    http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/billfile/hb1211.htm
    http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/bills/hb/hb1086f.pdf
    http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/fnotes/bil_0001/hb1211.pdf
    Heard 3/9
    # Call your rep!!
    # ANDERSON mailto:curt_anderson@house.state.md.us
    CARTER mailto:jill_carter@house.state.md.us
    DUMAIS mailto:kathleen_dumais@house.state.md.us
    KELLEY mailto:darryl_kelley@house.state.md.us
    PETZOLD mailto:carol_petzold@house.state.md.us
    MENES mailto:pauline_menes@house.state.md.us
    SIMMONS mailto:luiz_simmons@house.state.md.us
    ZIRKIN mailto:bobby_zirkin@house.state.md.us
    Senate Action No Action
    Synopsis:
    Altering the requirements and procedures for application for, and issuance of, a handgun permit; altering and eliminating specified fees; eliminating modified and limited handgun permits; eliminating the requirement that the holder have a good and substantial reason to carry a handgun; requiring an applicant to meet specified criteria and conditions to obtain a permit; requiring the Secretary of State Police to approve or reject an application for a handgun permit within a specified period of time; etc.
     

    Jim Sr

    R.I.P.
    Jun 18, 2005
    6,898
    Annapolis MD
    2005 Regular Session bill information

    2005 Regular Session bill information

    Gun Bills / ALL - - - - - - - - - - - - http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/subjects/guns.htm
    Weapons Bills / ALL - - - - - - - - http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/subjects/weapons.htm
    Hunting Bills / ALL - - - - - - - - - http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/subjects/hunting.htm
    Trapping Bills / ALL - - - - - - - - http://mlis.state.md.us/2005rs/subjects/trapping.htm

    Find your legislators using a street address or zip-code. - - - http://mdelect.net/
    Send E-Mail to a Legislator - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://mlis.state.md.us/cgi-win/mail32.exe
     

    Micro

    Member
    Dec 6, 2005
    22
    Easton
    Thanks for posting all that information.

    I've put a call in to the Attorney General's office to clarify the waiting period and when a purchased handgun can be delivered to the purchaser. Cognizant attorney was out to lunch (no pun intended... yet). If/when I get an answer on this, I'll pass it along.
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
    Staff member
    Admin
    Moderator
    May 22, 2005
    122,848
    Micro said:
    Thanks for posting all that information.

    I've put a call in to the Attorney General's office to clarify the waiting period and when a purchased handgun can be delivered to the purchaser. Cognizant attorney was out to lunch (no pun intended... yet). If/when I get an answer on this, I'll pass it along.

    Good luck in getting things straightened out.......it's frustrating enough to wait a week, let alone 3 weeks
     

    Micro

    Member
    Dec 6, 2005
    22
    Easton
    Norton said:
    Good luck in getting things straightened out.......it's frustrating enough to wait a week, let alone 3 weeks

    Well, I just got back from picking it up, FINALLY. Of course, on the paperwork (which I filled out on 12/02/05) it shows that the MSP got it on 12/12/05 and signed it out on 12/15/05. Today being 12/22/05 sure looks like someone, either at the gun shop or at MSP is remiss. The thing they didn't count on is that their laws and their lax attention to their constituents just created another activist.

    To add to my ire, of course, I had to buy an internal lock, which will never come out of the plastic package, but cost me $25 plus tax. Now, that's a ripoff of the highest order.

    I am truly sick and tired of being treated like a retarded child by the government that I pay to represent my interests.

    When are we marching on Annapolis?

    :mad54:
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
    Staff member
    Admin
    Moderator
    May 22, 2005
    122,848
    Micro said:
    When are we marching on Annapolis?

    I'm sure we'll all be there come February or March.....won't take long now to see what Garagiola and Quinter have in store for us this year.
     

    Micro

    Member
    Dec 6, 2005
    22
    Easton
    Micro said:
    Norton, thanks for that correction. I was sure I had read that the provision had passed in the 2005 session and took effect in July or thereabouts. In the meantime, here's the law, as I can find it, related to the waiting period. [You can certainly understand the reluctance of a dealer to go out on a limb -- it's a $10,000 fine and up to 5 years in prison, if they transfer a gun to someone who's not supposed to have one.]:

    § 5-122. Disapproval of firearm application.


    (b) Notice.-

    (1) If the Secretary disapproves a firearm application, the Secretary shall notify the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor in writing of the disapproval within 7 days after the date that the executed firearm
    application is forwarded to the Secretary by certified mail or facsimile machine.

    (2) After notifying the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor under paragraph (1) of this subsection, the Secretary shall notify the prospective purchaser, lessee, or transferee in writing of the disapproval.

    (3) The date when the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor forwards the executed firearm application to the Secretary by certified mail or by facsimile machine is the first day of the 7-day period allowed for notice of
    disapproval to the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor.

    [An. Code 1957, art. 27, § 442(i); 2003, ch. 5, § 2.]

    § 5-123. Time for licensee to complete transactions.

    (a) Seven-day waiting period.- A licensee may not sell, rent, or transfer a regulated firearm until after 7 days following the time a firearm application is executed by the firearm applicant, in triplicate, and the
    original is forwarded by the prospective seller or transferor to the Secretary.
    I got a call back from the Attorney General's office regarding interpretation of this issue. They confirm that, if the paperwork is not back in 7 days (from the time the clock starts -- see above), the firearm can be released by the dealer. I stated that, understandably, gun shop owners are reluctant to interpret the law that way, so, would they consider putting up on the web site a plain explanation of the law and this interpretation, including how you have to be absolutely sure (the words are something like -- "knew or should have known" -- ) that the person to whom the gun is transferred is OK. The answer was that the State Police would be reluctant to put that on their site since they'd rather everyone wait until the paperwork comes back. So, bottom line is, it's perfectly legal, and they do understand that the 7-day provision in the law is being significantly lengthened beyond its intention by the fear of the gun shop owners.

    I thought laws had two sides: compliance and enforcement. If you enforce a law incorrectly, either intentionally or through intentional neglect, isn't that technically a violation of the law?

    The only thing I could think of was to have this interpretation available to gun shop owners, so I asked if I could use his name on this forum. He said he didn't mind since he's on the Attorney General's web site as the POC for gun issues. His name is Mark Bowen, and his number is 410-653-4228. If enough gun shop owners/purchasers called in to get the interpretation right, perhaps they'd find a way to make the law plainer so we don't waste their time.

    On a side note: I cleaned my new gun last night without shooting myself (how do people do that, anyhow? Or is it always a euphemism for suicide?), and I'm headed to the range to see if I can hit the inside of the building. By the way, I ordered practice ammo over the internet, and five boxes of .40 cal fell out of the package (three made it through). UPS is checking on who might have re-taped the box.

    It's been a fun month....

    Micro
     

    Micro

    Member
    Dec 6, 2005
    22
    Easton
    Spot77 said:
    Geez.....I'd be PISSED about the ammo.....

    Did you already tell us which gun shop you bought the gun from?
    I bought the gun from Shooters Choice in Dover because I couldn't find it quickly available at the four shops I went to in Maryland (of course, it didn't wind up being quick anyhow, but that wasn't Shooters Choice's fault at all -- they got it in 24 hours). I bought the Sig P229 Equinox .40 cal., so not everybody had even seen it, let alone had it available.

    I ordered ammo from two different sources to get a wide range to "test." I got 50 rounds each of about a dozen brands of practice ammo and fewer rounds of a bunch of brands of HP, again to "test." I'm looking for accuracy (within reason) and crap left on the gun, etc. So far, through only four brands, I don't see any difference. If that holds, then, of course, I'll go with the cheapest (duh). It's running $3-$4 a box (50) cheaper on the web with very small shipping charge than same brands at shops, so I think that's going to be the way to go (in between gun shows).

    BTW, the best service I got was from www.CheaperThanDirt.com, which charges a one-per-order charge of $3.00, and ship all you want for $5.99 flat rate. The other shipment was from www.ableammo.com, and they put too much in one box, which busted and lost 5 of 8 boxes. They've been nice, but I still don't have what I paid for, of course.

    Edit: I forgot to mention that the shop that did not get permission to release the gun was Vonnie's in Kennedyville. I do think there was some blame there. Maybe that's why they only charged $20 to act as the FFL for the paperwork....
     
    Last edited:

    Spot77

    Ultimate Member
    May 8, 2005
    11,591
    Anne Arundel County
    I've heard some people speak well of Vonnie's....hopefully your problem was an anomaly.

    I don't shoot .40 too often but when I do I really like the Georgia Arms stuff. It's accurate and clean, and can be had for a pretty fair price; especially if you catch them at the Dulles gun show.

    Let us know how that Sig sings.......
     

    Micro

    Member
    Dec 6, 2005
    22
    Easton
    Spot77 said:
    I've heard some people speak well of Vonnie's....hopefully your problem was an anomaly.

    I don't shoot .40 too often but when I do I really like the Georgia Arms stuff. It's accurate and clean, and can be had for a pretty fair price; especially if you catch them at the Dulles gun show.

    Let us know how that Sig sings.......
    I'm going to take this discussion over to the Water Cooler. Seems like we've strayed off topic, and I'll take the hits for that. See you over there.
     

    Micro

    Member
    Dec 6, 2005
    22
    Easton
    I got the following response from Delegate Jeannie Haddaway-Riccio regarding my original letter (my response to her response is below this):

    From: Delegate Jeannie Haddaway
    Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 3:20 PM
    Subject: RE: Some concerns


    Mr. XXXX,

    Thank you for sharing your concerns regarding Maryland's firearms laws. I appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences with me and I completely understand your desire to protect yourself and your family. In the next couple of days, I will look into why there is such a backlog with the State Police checks. I would also be happy to keep you posted on legislation that comes up this session regarding firearms, particularly the right to carry laws.

    Sincerely,

    Jeannie
    Jeannie Haddaway-Riccio
    Maryland House of Delegates - District 37B
    Talbot, Caroline, Dorchester and Wicomico Counties

    32 S. Washington Street, Suite #1
    Easton, Maryland 21601
    (410) 820-8043

    My reply to her:

    DEL Haddaway-Riccio:

    Thank you for getting back to me. I would very much appreciate being kept up to date on any pending legislation regarding gun laws and right to carry.

    Let me update you since I wrote last: some other firearms owners told me that the three-week delay wasn't necessary since the State Police require only that the gunshop owner wait seven days after submitting the paperwork (via certified mail or fax). If MSP has not disapproved within that period, the handgun can be delivered to the buyer. I called the State Attorney General's office for clarification, since this sounded like it would require a legal interpretation. I spoke with Mr. Mark Bowen (410-653-4228), who is the Attorney General's POC for gun questions. He confirmed that the only requirement is that the gunshop owner wait seven days for disapproval. If they hear nothing, they can issue the handgun. I asked him if he would ask MSP to clarify that on their web site so that gun shops would not feel that their licenses were in jeopardy if they did follow that interpretation. He stated that he did not think MSP would do that since they really didn't want things changed. In other words, although the law is intended NOT to cause inordinate delays, MSP (or the Attorney General's office) won't make it clear enough to gun shop owners for them to risk it. In addition, losing (or even delaying) paperwork in the mail would allow a felon, for example, to get a gun anyhow.

    What's worse: the timing on my paperwork shows that MSP didn't act until two weeks after I filled in the paperwork (I don't know when they got it). They then show that it took them only two days to "Not Disapprove" (they don't "approve", they only "not disapprove") and another week to get the paperwork back to the gun shop. Now, if a gun shop follows the law as it was intended, a gun could easily be delivered to a felon before the MSP even starts to look at his/her background. Now, I think that even seven days is excessive; however, if the law, as written, is ineffective yet is still an annoyance to law-abiding citizens, then it needs to be changed. It seems to me the only way for a gun shop owner to feel comfortable, and for law-abiding citizens not to be frustrated, is for them to be able to call a hot-line and get a real-time reading. They could then submit the paperwork for the record, along with the approval (or "not disapproved") code, much like what happens with a credit card purchase and approval. In this way, the public would be truly protected, the gun shop owner would be comfortable, and the law-abiding citizen would not be inconvenienced. Today's technology certainly could be used to advantage to permit such a process, and I'm sure other states have already plowed this ground successfully.

    Anything you can do would be appreciated. I'm certain there would be significant support among firearms owners or would-be owners for reasonable changes of this type. I recognize that it's an uphill battle for significant revision while the current legislators are in office; however, this particular law is not doing what was intended and is not being implemented properly. Perhaps this could be a place to start to open the dialog.

    Sincerely,

    XXXXX
     

    Spot77

    Ultimate Member
    May 8, 2005
    11,591
    Anne Arundel County
    Good that she got back to you. I wonder if she'd be willing to sponsor or cosponsor a few pro gun laws?

    I'll have to do some research on her......
     

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