SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

esqappellate · Jul 17, 2012

Patrick said:
No argument on your points, but Maryland would not be the first to play the administrative game nor the first to be taken to court over it.

There is a line, and it'll be obvious. If they get 10,000 additional applications, keep requiring long investigations and then fail to hire help, - they are knowingly causing delay. One-year application times won't stand, nor will a muti-tier system that puts G&S permits ahead of non-G&S permits.

I think MSP will try to do the right thing, but they don't make all the rules. Starving the people of their exercise of a constitutional right via administrative hurdles cannot be countenanced under any form of law.[/QUOTE]

I see this sort of delay all the time. If the agency comes up with plausible sounding, good faith reasons for delay, the courts are generally loath to jump on them. A lot of gray in this.

Dogabutila · Jul 17, 2012

I would argue that if it's a good faith reason for delay then its not purposeful in itself. Maybe just incompetence. What? We expecting the government to get it right the first (or second...or third...) time?

pcfixer · Jul 17, 2012

Patrick said:
If you have something you'd like to offer to the MSP, then do so. Threats, training, your mother's oatmeal cookie recipe...whatever you think will help.

There is no training requirement today. Troopers are doing the same investigation they have always done, using the same material and the same practices. Prior to this ruling, that investigation was focused on occupational issues and the rare personal defense permit. In all cases they could deny you on discretionary grounds. That meant that if the trooper felt you needed training, you had better go get the training. Also, for occupational permits (guards, etc.) the training helped MSP determine you could be qualified to carry an arm while on the job.

The ruling changes the qualifications: upstanding person, in essence. So the discretion is not allowed. The current stay means they continue to do things the old way, until the new way settles in. MSP may not even love to do it, but the simple fact is they must.

MSI's official position is we don't need a training requirement in Maryland, beyond the existing handgun safety course. I won't split hairs or argue the "utility" of training with anyone here. The question is not whether it is a good idea, the question is whether there is a serious issue that only an additional law can remedy. Keep in mind that fancy gun courses may be the norm for many here, but that those on the lower end of the economic spectrum might not be able to do it. So by instituting a day's worth of training (NRA, whatever) you have increased the actual cost of the permit another few hundred dollars and disenfranchised a significant percentage of MD residents.

Any proposal from the legislature would be judged against that simple standard: would the rules prevent many from exercising their right?

We beat such a rule once. We'll do it again if we must.

Thank You, Patrick.
I do believe in stand your ground in all you do. Good Job.

apagios · Jul 17, 2012

swinokur said:
Did she request training certifications?

If she did, I don't understand MSP asking for things that are not legally required and should have zero bearing on permit issuance. What else could they begin asking for that isn't legally required?

Or are you just presenting them?

She did specifically request them, I just dropped of copies an hour ago at the barracks.

She told me that obviously the decision isn't up to her and she has to send everythign up to head quarters so she was merely trying to present the best case possible to give me a little better chance. I think she felt that if she could submit her report on my interview with proof of training and any other info that could possibly help show the decision makers that I am a responsible gun owner, it would only help my case.

When it comes to training I have no qualms about simply showing that I have taken courses. She certainly didn't ask anything intrusive that gave me the impression she was probing me for info to be used against me.

Honestly she was very polite, professional, and seemed genuinely interested in helping me get my permit. So I had no problem answering more questions or dropping off a few xeroxs of courses I have taken. I did specifically mention two different instructors which I plan on taking home defense and "outside the home" defense courses.

Basically just trying to convey that I am a responsible gun owner and have every intention of being responsible gun "bear-er" and getting further training as I get closer to being able to CCW.

CypherPunk · Jul 17, 2012

Patrick said:
No argument on your points, but Maryland would not be the first to play the administrative game nor the first to be taken to court over it.

There is a line, and it'll be obvious. If they get 10,000 additional applications, keep requiring long investigations and then fail to hire help, - they are knowingly causing delay. One-year application times won't stand, nor will a muti-tier system that puts G&S permits ahead of non-G&S permits.

I think MSP will try to do the right thing, but they don't make all the rules. Starving the people of their exercise of a constitutional right via administrative hurdles cannot be countenanced under any form of law.

There is some anecdotal evidence for the MSP is issuing G&S permits on the 90th day (91st allowing for delivery). This is not out of character for the MSP, as I believe they hold handgun applications until the seventh or eighth day, regardless of when they are actually “Not Disapproved”.

At least one attorney has advised inclusion of a company policy requiring you to apply for and maintain a CHP, where applicable, in order to increase your chances of a permit being issued and being issued expeditiously.

As I said before, I was recently told to expect to wait at least another month for the app to be finalized by the licensing division after the interviewer completes their part.

eyesinpines · Jul 17, 2012

Has there been anything close to credible in terms of how many applications MSP have rec'd since Judge Leggs original ruling?

Zaicran · Jul 17, 2012

My guess is there are a lot more permit applications than what the MSP want to admit...

eyesinpines said:
Has there been anything close to credible in terms of how many applications MSP have rec'd since Judge Leggs original ruling?

rob b · Jul 17, 2012

I heard about 200,000 plus or minus
but not from a credible source

Patrick · Jul 17, 2012

rob b said:
I heard about 200,000 plus or minus
but not from a credible source

Not even close. I don't have exact figures, but they are nowhere near that. Keep in mind WI had a run-up to "permit day" of almost a year's worth of news articles talking it up. Every gun club got every member the info they needed, well before the first day they could apply. They had a tremendous response - about 60,000 in less than a year. Many more than expected.

WI is the same size as MD, but until this stay is lifted few people are truly aware. That will change if the stay lifts. Promise.

The numbers 12,000 are tossed around in some circles. I say closer to 20,000 however I see 30,000 as a personal goal.

lseries · Jul 17, 2012

dlmcbm said:
I don't know how lawyers find these laws in all that mess.

As with so many things, it's fairly easy if you know how. The USDA Graduate School used to offer a class in legal research. I took it several decades ago and found it very useful, not to mention fascinating. If the course is well taught, you'll learn a whole lot more than just how to find the laws.

Whether the USDA still offers this course, much less how well it is taught, I have no idea.

Do expect plenty of homework if you do take such a class: The only way to learn how to do this is to practice; like learning to play a musical instrument, you don't acquire the skill merely by reading about it.

Hit and Run · Jul 17, 2012

Interesting document. Twenty-two State AG's signed an endorsement of H.R. 822, national right to carry law. www.nraila.org/hr822letter.

MDFF2008 · Jul 17, 2012

Can someone remind me when the oral arguments are?

Gray Peterson · Jul 18, 2012

Hit and Run said:
Interesting document. Twenty-two State AG's signed an endorsement of H.R. 822, national right to carry law. www.nraila.org/hr822letter.

Funny how that doesn't include the Colorado Attorney General, eh?

CypherPunk · Jul 18, 2012

Patrick said:
Not even close. I don't have exact figures, but they are nowhere near that. Keep in mind WI had a run-up to "permit day" of almost a year's worth of news articles talking it up. Every gun club got every member the info they needed, well before the first day they could apply. They had a tremendous response - about 60,000 in less than a year. Many more than expected.

WI is the same size as MD, but until this stay is lifted few people are truly aware. That will change if the stay lifts. Promise.

The numbers 12,000 are tossed around in some circles. I say closer to 20,000 however I see 30,000 as a personal goal.

Even in counting permit applications & downloads, Maryland fails.

Florida's Dept of Agriculture is a good example for "Maryland's Finest".

Not only do they number and track each downloaded application, but one check the application status online and in realtime. To add insult to injury they don't take 90 days, or even 45 days to process.

Merlin · Jul 18, 2012

Patrick said:
No argument on your points, but Maryland would not be the first to play the administrative game nor the first to be taken to court over it.

There is a line, and it'll be obvious. If they get 10,000 additional applications, keep requiring long investigations and then fail to hire help, - they are knowingly causing delay. One-year application times won't stand, nor will a muti-tier system that puts G&S permits ahead of non-G&S permits.

I think MSP will try to do the right thing, but they don't make all the rules. Starving the people of their exercise of a constitutional right via administrative hurdles cannot be countenanced under any form of law.

The one thing they can do is cry poor. The money will have to flow so a better system can be put in place. For starters they will need more people. And Maryland knows how to cry poor with the best of them.

krucam · Jul 18, 2012

gprimr1 said:
Can someone remind me when the oral arguments are?

Sometime just after Labor Day, at the earliest. The CA4 term starts around 9/10 IIRC.

Mr H · Jul 18, 2012

eyesinpines said:
Has there been anything close to credible in terms of how many applications MSP have rec'd since Judge Leggs original ruling?

From anecdotal information, conversations I've had, and basic math, I have estimated the "post-ruling, pre-stay" numbers to be something on the order of 15,000-25,000 applications. Purely unscientific.

Patrick · Jul 18, 2012

CypherPunk said:
Even in counting permit applications & downloads, Maryland fails.

Florida's Dept of Agriculture is a good example for "Maryland's Finest".

Not only do they number and track each downloaded application, but one check the application status online and in realtime. To add insult to injury they don't take 90 days, or even 45 days to process.

A 2010 IG audit of the MSP found - among many things - that the license processing section did most of their work by hand, resulting in significant overhead. The MSP had already started the push to electronic permit processing, and the report helped. The report said they were moving to the same system used in VA and maybe even FL , I think. That does not imply the same features from our perspective, but it does imply more efficiency on their end.

MSP was not set up to handle the double or triple permit load they will have if G&S is lifted. But this stay has given them some time to prepare. If the AG gets his way, they will have even more time, though I doubt Gansler sees this as "prep time".

yellowfin · Jul 18, 2012

So what's the official word on the stay? Is it just seeming longer because we're waiting for it with up to the minute info capability?

fightinbluhen51 · Jul 18, 2012

Patrick said:
Not even close. I don't have exact figures, but they are nowhere near that. Keep in mind WI had a run-up to "permit day" of almost a year's worth of news articles talking it up. Every gun club got every member the info they needed, well before the first day they could apply. They had a tremendous response - about 60,000 in less than a year. Many more than expected.

WI is the same size as MD, but until this stay is lifted few people are truly aware. That will change if the stay lifts. Promise.

The numbers 12,000 are tossed around in some circles. I say closer to 20,000 however I see 30,000 as a personal goal.

If/When the stay is lifted...I will be one of those second wave folks, so as to beat the rush of those waiting on the merits to be decided.

BTW, Not this Friday, but next we should reach a filing deadline yes?

SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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