Pretty sure he directly said even 2 poorly placed holes presented a dramatic reduction in the survival rate.
Best 9mm carry ammo question
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Pretty sure he directly said even 2 poorly placed holes presented a dramatic reduction in the survival rate.
smokey
2A TEACHER
- Jan 31, 2008
- 31,534
Their civic duty round is worse than just being outrageously expensive, it trades off the most important factor to terminal ballistics (penetration) for a secondary factor (expansion) so that it only penetrates to 9" in gel. It's a cool round with potential, but they calibrated the depth of the cavity wrong. There's not enough weight in the base to carry it deep with how much drag it has. It would be cool if they hollowed out the base, filled it with lead from behind, and shortened the length of the petals a bit. It could have better penetration and still very good expansion.
But then the pictures wouldn't be as pretty. For the majority of buyers, its what they see over what the product is actually going to do.
alucard0822
For great Justice
Then there is none better than GRIZZLY XTREME!!!!
some of the most impressive expansion pictures around, nevermind they penetrate 6" or less in gel when they work, and zip through like a FMJ when they don't, cost $3 a round and chrono a couple hundred FPS below advertised velocity.
The only non traditional bullet design I've seen that looks like it might be useful is the Lehigh defense xtreme penetrator/xtreme defense. Still expensive, but the ogive shape seems to offer better hard cover penetration, and a greater wound channel compared to FMJ. The Xtreme defense verison may even compare to good HP ammo, but the shape could give reliability issues, and it is a hot load with a lot of blast, even more so when loaded by Underwood. The very light bullet may be more prone to cycling issues, and they may slow down more, or deflect more if they encounter a barrier or tough target anatomy.
Last edited:
smokey
2A TEACHER
- Jan 31, 2008
- 31,534
Then there is none better than GRIZZLY XTREME!!!!
some of the most impressive expansion pictures around, nevermind they penetrate 6" or less in gel when they work, and zip through like a FMJ when they don't, cost $3 a round and chrono a couple hundred FPS below advertised velocity.
The only non traditional bullet design I've seen that looks like it might be useful is the Lehigh defense xtreme penetrator/xtreme defense. Still expensive, but the ogive shape seems to offer better hard cover penetration, and a greater wound channel compared to FMJ. The Xtreme defense verison may even compare to good HP ammo, but the shape could give reliability issues, and it is a hot load with a lot of blast, even more so when loaded by Underwood. The very light bullet may be more prone to cycling issues, and they may slow down more, or deflect more if they encounter a barrier or tough target anatomy.
I also question the conclusions about the wounding potential they're drawing from the cavity in gel. Tissue behaves differently than gel in terms of the damage that happens. The permanent cavity from those seems to be made when a radial high pressure area created by the constructive interference disrupts the gel. The pressure/velocity itself is what makes the shape in gel rather than direct contact with the front of the bullet.
I'd like to see some animal tests to see if those radial bands of high pressure/velocity transfer from gel to living tissue. I suspect the damage portrayed by the gel isn't really reflective of what happens to a body. With a traditional hollowpoint, you pretty much know the tissue the bullet contacts will be crushed(except for liver and brain and the more inelastic tissues). With these, I'm left with a big questionmark.
I did A LOT of research on this question before I retired from the PD. The answer I came up with was 124 grain Hydra Shoks. But in all honesty the Speer short barrel stuff was not out then. So I can't comment on that. Have never been impressed with Hornady's 9mm performance from the tests I have seen.
knastera
Just another shooter
That's good information, thanks. I picked up a Beretta Pico recently and I grabbed a box of Hydra Shok to go with it. Obviously, the .380 ACP is not coming in at 124 gr (it's running at 90 gr.) But the overall performance should be acceptable. At 1,000 fps and well managed recoil, it seems to be a good choice for a gun that only weighs 11.5 oz.
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I personally will not go smaller than a 9mm. That might be showing my age a little. I even think 9mm is a little too small. The only reason I did get a 9mm carry gun is because of the convenient size of the Sig P938 pistol. That is why I want to be sure us get good performing ammo.
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knastera
Just another shooter
I thought the same way. My first semi auto carry gun was a Taurus PT740 Slim in .40 S&W. Then I carried it for a week and one half and I went to the Beretta Pico because it is so much more comfortable to carry. I was willing to sacrifice the caliber for comfort. I also have a S&W model 37 in .38 Special which is a joy to carry. It only holds five, but I feel more secure with 158 grain .38 Special versus the smaller pistol calibers.
I think the bottom line is that carry guns are extremely personal as to what is "best." The only general "best" statement I can truly make is that the best is what you feel comfortable carrying and can consistently shoot well.
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If your gun is too big to be convenient to carry regularly, it's no good to you. It's better to have a small pop, than no pop. I suppose that I would rather have a Red Ryder BB gun than have nothing.
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Multiple shots of 38 Special, even round nose, can be devastatingly effective. This a-hole shot 8 people in NJ and Pennsylvania area in 2015 killing 7 of 8 ...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.nyda...people-span-weeks-officials-article-1.2287018
A few months ago, the Cascade Mall shooter killed 5 people with a 10/22, and based on witness reports of shots fired, likely multiple hits.
Not saying this equates to stopping power (when an attacker is shooting folks trying to escape/survive vs fight the shooter), but even in a defensive shooting, two hits being better than one likely exceeds the marginal benefit between differently expanding 9mm loads that penetrate sufficiently (and don't prematurely fragment, and dump all their energy/penetration potential). Put another way, two wound channels caused by 9mm RN are likely to be more traumatic than one wound channel caused by a bonded, expanding hollow point. Obviously, sometimes the defender might be lucky to get one hit.
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https://www.google.com/amp/www.nyda...people-span-weeks-officials-article-1.2287018
A few months ago, the Cascade Mall shooter killed 5 people with a 10/22, and based on witness reports of shots fired, likely multiple hits.
Not saying this equates to stopping power (when an attacker is shooting folks trying to escape/survive vs fight the shooter), but even in a defensive shooting, two hits being better than one likely exceeds the marginal benefit between differently expanding 9mm loads that penetrate sufficiently (and don't prematurely fragment, and dump all their energy/penetration potential). Put another way, two wound channels caused by 9mm RN are likely to be more traumatic than one wound channel caused by a bonded, expanding hollow point. Obviously, sometimes the defender might be lucky to get one hit.
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As the .38 Special, I've seen some very nasty wounds from lead wadcutters. Years ago when AA County switched to semi-autos from our old Model 65's I remember a lot of the older guys weren't too thrilled with the idea (even though they were getting an extra TEN rounds before needing a reload), because the 158gr. +P Remington round we were carrying had never failed to stop a bad guy.
jimbobborg
Oddball caliber fan
When I carry my Colt Cobra, I use a mix of these https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...-38-special-p-125-grain-jacketed-hollow-point and https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...pecial-110-grain-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-25 I've shot about 50 rounds of 130gr FMJs out of it to make sure it was working and check the sights. I still need to get a real shooter snubby, probably the RIA M206 in nickel with the bobbed hammer. As I posted earlier, I'm moving away from the 9mm for SD. If I need more than six rounds and another six or twelve with speed loaders, I'm on my way to my truck for my rifle.
I guess just to give this thread a little closure. I ended up choosing the standard pressure Federal HST LE 9mm Luger Ammo 147 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point for my Sig P938 and Federal LE HST 45 ACP AUTO Ammo 230 Grain +P Jacketed Hollow Point for my Warthog.
I figure standard pressure for the little Sig due to the small overall gun size and aluminium frame, and +P for the Warthog due to the steel frame and better velocity from the short barrel.
That's my logic anyway.
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I figure standard pressure for the little Sig due to the small overall gun size and aluminium frame, and +P for the Warthog due to the steel frame and better velocity from the short barrel.
That's my logic anyway.
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redeemed.man
Ultimate Member
I just got a 1000 round case of the +p 147 gr HST.
Most of my nines are still loaded with Federal BPLE 115 grain +p+. The remaining nines are currently loaded with Remington Golden Saber bonded +p 124 gr.
I may one day switch them all over to the HST's.
BMassBMore
Active Member
I've done a ton of reading, and watched a ton of videos. The general consensus is that Federal 147gr HST (standard pressure, P9HST2) is the best performer, even in short barrels. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VfWkWMzOI&t=237s
I'd urge you to avoid Federal 9BPLE. It may once have been among the top choices, but there are far better choices today. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Rx_Mf2PTY for a review from someone who has done an awful lot of first hand testing of 9mm ammo.
I'd urge you to avoid Federal 9BPLE. It may once have been among the top choices, but there are far better choices today. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Rx_Mf2PTY for a review from someone who has done an awful lot of first hand testing of 9mm ammo.
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