.357 Snubbies

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  • kmittleman

    Active Member
    Nov 22, 2010
    857
    Howard County
    Hi all,

    I was looking at some velocity and energy numbers for the .357 mag out of a 2” barrel. Based on a comparison of a .357 j frame and a Glock 26, it seems like there’s no point to the .357. They both have similar bullet weights, velocities, and diameters, but the 9mm seems to have less recoil and twice the capacity.

    Am I missing something?

    Thanks!

    K
     

    Huckleberry

    No One of Consequence
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 19, 2007
    23,248
    Severn & Lewes
    When you think about carrying a snubbie, you want it for the revolver's inherent reliability for close in work. Doesn't matter if it is chambered for 357, 38 +p or 9mm. You're expecting that you have a diztance between 0 to 25' from your attacker and you just want to hear that bang when you pull the trigger.

    As for muzzle energy, you're comparing a 2" barrel to a 4" so the longer barrel is going to help any round gain velocity.

    As for capacity issues, most of the studied gunfights average 1 to 3 rounds per shooter. I 'll et somebody else make the jokes about NYPD or Homieboy Hood Rats and their recorded mag dumps.

    The CW is to beware any man that carries a revolver because he probably knows how to shoot and hit his targets.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,325
    maryland
    kmittleman, velocity of a given load (with some very few exceptions) will generally be 150-200 fps (VERY general number) slower in a snubby than in a "service" 4" barrel. My old 2.5" k frame was generally around 100-150fps below a 4" gun/published data but again, this is very gun and load specific.

    Huckleberry makes very valid points regarding the capacity argument (I am not even going down that rabbit hole, it is all about personal application).

    On the reliability side, I have found subcompact glocks to be very solid performers for NORMAL shooting by trained personnel. The caveats I include for very good reasons. When a shooter is able to present and align a weapon to a target, the sights matter (another point for Glock, with a TON of sight options, over the J frame, many of which have fixed sights that cannot be practically replaced). When shooting from retention or index, I find the baby glocks to be VERY difficult to use unless one adds a +2 extension to the magazine but this brings the weapon up to an almost identical vertical dimension with the compact glocks (19,23,32). They point and index (for me) much better than the subcompacts. When using a compact revolver (J frame smith, ruger SP101, etc) with a appropriate set of stocks, I find retention and index shooting to be far better than with most semi autos (1911s are an exception but only because I have shot them a LOT). I can also obtain a much more secure grip on a (properly stocked) J frame than I can on a baby glock with no mag extension. These are personal preferences, and yours may vary.

    On the subject of reloading, because we should always have a plan to do so if the situation warrants, the glock is the theoretical winner. While it is true that a magazine can be exchanged more readily and has greater capacity than a revolver's cylinder load, even with Speed Beez, one must color this a bit with experience. I won't argue the speed and capacity points. What I WILL mention is the tendency of shooters, especially those that do not practice religiously, to lacerate or viciously pinch themselves when loading a baby glock (with or without extensions) under pressure. I have treated myself for this very injury and more than a few others have experienced it in my presence. The Pearce grip extensions SUCK; there is a very sharp edge that MUST be filed off prior to installation. With this mod, or using better quality parts, one can still suffer a minor injury. In a couple of cases, the shooter was unable to get the weapon to fire as there was sufficient skin/meat holding the magazine below the required level. I have seen a baby glock or two hit the deck when someone cleared this issue as well. Modification and training can cure these issues, for the most part.

    At bad breath distance, or in any situation where I suspect I may be going hands-on with an assailant, I suggest a revolver as a backup gun or, horror of horrors, a primary gun. Your backup gun should have either a fully hidden or at least a "shrouded" hammer so that it cannot be obstructed as you will be firing it in nearly every case double action at very close range. This specification will also prevent *most* impediments to the draw stroke. A favorite trick a guy I know likes to play is to put a student with an automatic in front of him and then jam the slide out of battery. While this IS a high risk technique and getting shot admittedly is not ideal when it goes wrong, it illustrates a problem. Most people, placed in that situation, push back against the person pushing on their gun, exacerbating the situation rather than pulling back to a pectoral index and shooting the assailant like they should. If you are driven to the ground or fighting in a clinch/pumbling/enclosed space situation, a revolver can be driven into an assailant and fired without malfunction. A side effect of this contact discharge is that a significant amount of expanding propellant gas travels into the tissue and/or body cavity of the person being shot. This significantly magnifies the effect of gunshot. Not only has the person now been subject to penetrative trauma but a high pressure injection injury has been added. While not as evil as, say, a hydraulic fluid injection at several thousand psi, it is not an effect to be shrugged off lightly. Yes, a trained person MAY be able to grab the cylinder and prevent you from firing but this is much harder than simply pushing a semi auto out of battery and it requires the person to have significant hand strength and/or endure a certain amount of pain when performed on most revolvers.

    Now that I have runeth off at the mouth, my bottom-line suggestion is to get whatever you are comfortable with that will serve the MOST situations you can envision given your lifestyle. If you do purchase a wheelgun, I advise either a .357 mag or a .38 spl +P rated. In MOST cases, I would suggest loading it with one of the more potent .38 +P options. Again, load selection can be a variable thing depending on lifestyle and preference. If you purchase the .357, you have the option to load the more powerful round IF you deem it to be a benefit. Just remember to clean the chambers WELL before firing 357 after using 38s.

    Good shooting and I hope that, whatever you pick, you never have to use it.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    31,902
    Sun City West, AZ
    I think a .357 snubby is not the best envelope for the cartridge...full disclosure...I own several .357 snubs myself. The short barrel increases blast and recoil and is hard to manage in many guns...and the size and weight to achieve controllability often makes them ill suited for concealed carry. That being said...these handguns can use .38 Special and are quite controllable and very reliable. Two fast hits on target with a .38 Special can outweigh a loud miss with a .357 that you have to pull down out of recoil. The loss of velocity in the short barrel often brings them down to .38 Special velocities.

    Today we also have loadings for many calibers made for short barrel handguns...both revolvers and self-loaders.

    In the end...choose whatever type and caliber handgun you can best carry concealed and use competently. Practice...tactics...train...repeat.
     

    Kman

    Blah, blah, blah
    Dec 23, 2010
    11,984
    Eastern shore
    I only have one 357 snubby. S&W 19 in 2.5 inch.
    Neat gun. Looks cool.
    I would not try to concealed carry. For me, too heavy and too wide...compared to semi auto options.
    I guess I'm a ccw sissy. A single stack 9 at around 20 ounces and 1 inch wide carrying 7 or more rounds makes the most sense, to me.
     

    TheOriginalMexicanBob

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2017
    31,902
    Sun City West, AZ
    I only have one 357 snubby. S&W 19 in 2.5 inch.
    Neat gun. Looks cool.
    I would not try to concealed carry. For me, too heavy and too wide...compared to semi auto options.
    I guess I'm a ccw sissy. A single stack 9 at around 20 ounces and 1 inch wide carrying 7 or more rounds makes the most sense, to me.

    Not a sissy...being practical. No one handgun is the answer for everyone. I love revolvers...have many. When I was a federal LEO, most of my years I was restricted to a revolver...I never felt underarmed whether on- or off-duty with one. Once I was issued a self-loader on-duty...I had a severe dislike for the pistol...I referred to it as the S&W "Boat Anchor" model...heavy and a terrible DA-only trigger. I much preferred the revolver I carried previously. Other officers felt the same.

    Off-duty I did change to a self-loader of my own choice. It was generally easier to carry than a revolver and in a more effective caliber.

    But...carry what you're most comfortable and competent with. Carrying a gun you don't like is arguably better than none at all...but something you're comfortable with you will be better with.
     

    CrazySanMan

    2013'er
    Mar 4, 2013
    11,390
    Colorful Colorado
    Cool - how is the weight on that Sp101? Does the hammer ever snag?

    Empty, the SP-101 is heavier than the Glock 26. When both are fully loaded (5 .357 vs 11 9mm) the Glock comes closer to the Ruger weight. I'll have to weigh each when I get home to see what the difference is when they are both loaded. When it's in a comfortable IWB holster I often forget I'm wearing the Ruger.

    I've never had trouble with the hammer snagging when I practice drawing and shooting. Cocking the hammer as I am drawing for a hair trigger first shot is second nature now also, which I believe makes for a more accurate first shot than the Glock does.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    When I bought my 2" S&W in .38 special, it was primarily because the caliber had been used by law enforcement for many decades and had proven to have sufficient power for their needs. In addition, the recoil is light enough to allow the shooter to reacquire the target quickly for follow up shots until the threat is neutralized.

    Today, when I hear a bump in the night that needs investigation, the .38 is what I grab. I have never had a revolver jam, and 6 rounds should be sufficient for most threats.

    For concealed carry, my preference would be the G26 because of the 10+1 capacity or something smaller like a 9x18mm P-64 with a 6+1 capacity. In the past, the .38 was my carry gun, but it is really too large and heavy for concealed carry with so many other options available, today.

    Whatever your choice, MexicanBob has said it best: "In the end...choose whatever type and caliber handgun you can best carry concealed and use competently. Practice...tactics...train...repeat."
     

    jtb81100

    Ultimate Member
    May 28, 2012
    2,234
    Western HoCo
    I've got a Taurus 617 (7 round .357) with a 2" barrel. It is my bump in the night gun. While shooting .357s in it is fun sometimes, the recoil and fireball are a bit more then I'd want to deal with in the middle of the night. Same gun is very accurate with .38s and has much lighter recoil. When it isn't at the range, it is loaded with .38s.
     

    cstone

    Active Member
    Dec 12, 2018
    842
    Baltimore, MD
    In uniform we carried 4" S&W Model 15, .38 Spl +P+, 125 gr JHP, and plain clothes, 2.5" S&W Model 19, .357 Mag. 125 gr JHP. Shot the same courses with both and with a little practice most people shot similar scores with either handgun. When we transitioned, we all got 3.9" barrel semi-autos chambered in .357 SIG, 125 gr JHP. Initially most people's scores dropped some. Lots of reasons were discussed for the cause in the drop, but it wasn't significant and eventually people who liked to shoot brought their scores back up.

    For me the biggest difference was going from a uniform belt with a drop holster to an OWB pancake and then finally years later settling on an IWB hybrid. Turns out the 1.5" difference in barrel length didn't really matter for me. The cant and height of the holster caused me more of an issue in establishing a consistent grip on the draw.

    You will never regret carrying rounds not needed, but the majority of self defense shootings are; 3 rounds, 3 seconds, 3 yards (or less). Anything you carry that you can consistently, 100% of the time get fist size groups with those three constraints, regardless of environment, should get you through life...as long as you make the correct decisions in when/if you need to use it, and make the decision with the correct timing.

    Be safe.
     

    hobiecat590

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2016
    2,412
    When I bought my 2" S&W in .38 special, it was primarily because the caliber had been used by law enforcement for many decades and had proven to have sufficient power for their needs. In addition, the recoil is light enough to allow the shooter to reacquire the target quickly for follow up shots until the threat is neutralized.

    Today, when I hear a bump in the night that needs investigation, the .38 is what I grab. I have never had a revolver jam, and 6 rounds should be sufficient for most threats.

    For concealed carry, my preference would be the G26 because of the 10+1 capacity or something smaller like a 9x18mm P-64 with a 6+1 capacity. In the past, the .38 was my carry gun, but it is really too large and heavy for concealed carry with so many other options available, today.

    Whatever your choice, MexicanBob has said it best: "In the end...choose whatever type and caliber handgun you can best carry concealed and use competently. Practice...tactics...train...repeat."

    WADR why would your bedside gun be a snubbie when carry considerations are N/A? I would think that a Glock 20,21, or 17 (or similar) w/ light and laser/night sights would be my hi cap grab it and investigate handgun. The snubbie would be the one I slip into a pocket to walk the dog, kill snakes (both types) or CC.

    I am struggling w/ the best drop in the pocket gun and like the 32 bobcat (6), or Bull pup 9 @ 5"L or the Bond arms "Roughneck" in 357/38 (2) at 4". Any suggestions are welcome since a G19 is too heavy and might make the neighbors nervous.
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,405
    Metropolis
    The only 357 mag i have is a mod 19 2.5”. Does look really nice. Never shot a 357 magnum load in it ( did try 6 in a kimber snub revolver with wood stocks once when a so called friend handed it to me at the range. Was not enamored.
    Was carrying the G33 for the last week and stopped by the range yesterday. Used to shoot this gun a lot but haven’t for 10 mos when i switched to my wife’s G43 after she got a p365.
    Draw and fire 2x-3x the 33 is harder to shoot than a small 9 like the 43 or the p365. But no where near as hard to shoot ( cold with no practice) as the kimber. Still, if someone feels the need for that sort of magnum power, wouldn’t 10 in the 357 sig beat 5-6 in the snub and the recoil is tamer in the glock though that’s subjective. But confidence in what you carry or depend on is probably number 1.
     

    tomrkba

    Active Member
    Jan 22, 2017
    238
    Am I missing something?

    No, you are not.

    Snubbies suck. They are too much of a compromise. You may as well go to 9x19mm out of the Glock 26, as mentioned, because it's lighter and you get more capacity in a smaller and lighter package with less performance loss. If you're only going to have 5-8 rounds in a revolver, you may as well shoot magnum ammunition. That means at least a 3" barrel, preferable one that is four to six inches, and at least a medium frame like that of the S&W 686 or Ruger GP100.

    If you're going to carry a 686 or GP100, you may as well upgrade to an N-Frame with Herretts Stocks Jordan Troopers cut to grip frame length. You can take advantage of the 627/327 eight round capacity in 357 Magnum in a lighter weight alloy frame package. The size difference is negligible in the areas that matter at the expense of a slightly larger cylinder that still fits under the same loose shirt you were wearing with the 686/GP100.

    ...revolver reliability...

    "Anyone who thinks a revolver is more reliable than a semiauto has never run a police line."
    --Chuck Haggard

    Seriously people, stop with the revolver propaganda.

    I like my revolvers as much as anyone else, but we shouldn't be lying about them. Several authors, including Grant Cunningham, came up with lists of reasons to use a revolver. Any time someone starts spewing the revolver nonsense, I cut them off with:

    "No justification is necessary. I like my revolvers and use them for defense. However, they have many weaknesses that semiautos lack and lying about them does nobody any favors."
     

    tomrkba

    Active Member
    Jan 22, 2017
    238
    The only 357 mag i have is a mod 19 2.5”. Does look really nice. Never shot a 357 magnum load in it ( did try 6 in a kimber snub revolver with wood stocks once when a so called friend handed it to me at the range. Was not enamored.

    I shot mine with 357 Magnum. It was not pleasant. I hated it so much that I replaced the 2 1/2" gun with one with a 4" barrel. I am much happier now.
     

    wreckdiver

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 13, 2008
    2,923
    I've got a Rossi 2" snubbie n 357 mag. Shooting 357 mag is kind of comical. Massive blast and fireball. Not very pleasant in the hand. 38s are fine, but probably lose too much velocity. I'll stick to the Glock 26 for CCW any day.
     

    GolfR

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 20, 2016
    1,324
    Columbia MD
    No, you are not.

    Snubbies suck. They are too much of a compromise. You may as well go to 9x19mm out of the Glock 26, as mentioned, because it's lighter and you get more capacity in a smaller and lighter package with less performance loss. If you're only going to have 5-8 rounds in a revolver, you may as well shoot magnum ammunition. That means at least a 3" barrel, preferable one that is four to six inches, and at least a medium frame like that of the S&W 686 or Ruger GP100.

    If you're going to carry a 686 or GP100, you may as well upgrade to an N-Frame with Herretts Stocks Jordan Troopers cut to grip frame length. You can take advantage of the 627/327 eight round capacity in 357 Magnum in a lighter weight alloy frame package. The size difference is negligible in the areas that matter at the expense of a slightly larger cylinder that still fits under the same loose shirt you were wearing with the 686/GP100.



    "Anyone who thinks a revolver is more reliable than a semiauto has never run a police line."
    --Chuck Haggard

    Seriously people, stop with the revolver propaganda.

    I like my revolvers as much as anyone else, but we shouldn't be lying about them. Several authors, including Grant Cunningham, came up with lists of reasons to use a revolver. Any time someone starts spewing the revolver nonsense, I cut them off with:

    "No justification is necessary. I like my revolvers and use them for defense. However, they have many weaknesses that semiautos lack and lying about them does nobody any favors."

    There is an undeniable advantage to revolvers, particularly for women. You can shoot them from inside a purse or pocket reliably. While shooting from inside a purse isn’t the greatest situation, if my wife or sister needed to use the gun I want them to be able to use it there if someone has them in their grasp.
     

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