38 spl +P reloads

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  • alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,687
    PA
    I read something yesterday which might apply but I found too advanced for me at this point>
    Something to do with the use of a Magnum primer?? I am not familiar with .38 / .357 M but do they use the same cartridge? The Magnum primer is said to produce ~5,000 more cup so how might that fall into play with making a +P load for a .38?
    If the .38 uses small pistol primers, reducing the powder charge and introducing a Magnum small pistol primer with a slower burning powder might ... well I do not know and am only throwing this out for knowledgeable comments, I am not trying it!

    I actually received a box of Magnum Small Pistol primers in error at a gun show this weekend and will be offering up for sale/trade.
    I am a fairly new reloader so I am asking for info not a chops busting.

    You want to use magnum primers only if a load calls for them, it isn't necessarilty dictated by caliber, or even pressure, it is for certain slow powders that need a hotter spark to light them consistently, some have lots of retardant in the outer layers, and some cases are shaped in a way that they are harder to keep a consistent burn going, especially when the case is full. In most correct uses velocity isn't that much higher, but they are more consistent because the flame propagates deeper, standard primers otherwise could fire the shot, with random clumps of unburned powder flying out after the bullet. There are fewer and fewer loads requiring magnum primers though, new powders generally light easier, then burn slower, unless you have a pet load that uses magnums most reloaders rarely if ever use them. I have a load or two that call for LPM primers, although Win LP primers are hot enough to be labeled for standard or magnum loads, and they work well in every load I use, never needed SPMs though. When used as a substitute for standard primers there may be no noticeable difference, there may be pressure signs and higher pressures when there weren't any with standard primers. There also can be a difference between brands of primers too, and unfortunately some load data isn't real specific on what primer the load was tested with, part of the reason you always want to work up a load before stamping out bulk loads
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,714
    Not Far Enough from the City
    I read something yesterday which might apply but I found too advanced for me at this point>
    Something to do with the use of a Magnum primer?? I am not familiar with .38 / .357 M but do they use the same cartridge? The Magnum primer is said to produce ~5,000 more cup so how might that fall into play with making a +P load for a .38?
    If the .38 uses small pistol primers, reducing the powder charge and introducing a Magnum small pistol primer with a slower burning powder might ... well I do not know and am only throwing this out for knowledgeable comments, I am not trying it!

    I actually received a box of Magnum Small Pistol primers in error at a gun show this weekend and will be offering up for sale/trade.
    I am a fairly new reloader so I am asking for info not a chops busting.

    You ask a really good question! And you also have the correct answer. Your answer that "I am not trying it" is spot on correct.

    Magnum primers are sometimes specified for use with certain powder and load combinations. Slower burning powders like W296 and H110 are examples of where you might typically see this. There are others as well. But what's most important here is to understand that "what if" testing is what ballistics labs are for.

    What would happen with a reduced charge and magnum primer combination? The REAL answer to your question regarding lighter charge weights and magnum primer combinations and substitutions? The REAL answer is that I don't know for sure.....and neither do you, and neither does anyone else! Again, "what if" experimentation is what the labs are for.

    Following published industry certified data is what keeps valuable guns and even more valuable faces and hands intact. And welcome to a great hobby!
     

    Marauder

    Revolver Addict
    Dec 14, 2010
    1,485
    I read something yesterday which might apply but I found too advanced for me at this point>
    Something to do with the use of a Magnum primer?? I am not familiar with .38 / .357 M but do they use the same cartridge? The Magnum primer is said to produce ~5,000 more cup so how might that fall into play with making a +P load for a .38?
    If the .38 uses small pistol primers, reducing the powder charge and introducing a Magnum small pistol primer with a slower burning powder might ... well I do not know and am only throwing this out for knowledgeable comments, I am not trying it!

    I actually received a box of Magnum Small Pistol primers in error at a gun show this weekend and will be offering up for sale/trade.
    I am a fairly new reloader so I am asking for info not a chops busting.

    You can use magnum primers in 38spl when the powder you are using calls for it. Or in your case reduce your powder charge (start low and then work up) If you don't feel comfortable using the magnum primers sell them and get some SPP.
     

    byf43

    SCSC Life/NRA Patron Life
    No short triggers here! What shoots good in my gun may not shoot good in your gun.
    OP needs to develop his own +P load......................

    Everybody has their favorites BUT they are opinions and you know what they say about them.

    Just because a certain load does great in a Smith 66 doesn't mean it will be great in a Security Six. get the manual and try different stuff out for yourself. Just my .02.

    Cant go wrong with Unique.


    I quoted these posts, because they are all spot on!!!


    To those that are NEW to reloading......... take 2¢ worth of free advice, from a guy that's been loading for a lonnnnnnnnnnng time.


    When I was young and dumb and full of _ _ _, I made up some loads in .38 Special that were very safe in my S&W mdl 19.

    However, those same loads, fired from my Charter Arms "Undercover" were WAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the top!!!!!
    They didn't do my S&W mdl 36 any good, either.
    These loads were +p or +p+!!!!!!!


    Work up your loads from PUBLISHED data, from a reliable/recognized loading manual.


    I'm not bustin' chops or bustin' balls when I say this.....
    What is safe in MY revolvers and pistols may NOT be safe in yours!!! None of us here, know what your loading practices are, how much experience you have, or what condition your handgun is in.


    I will only document on this forum (or any other, for that matter) loads that are SAFE to use.

    Again, to restate what I did, previously, I do NOT 'hotrod' .38 Special (or .45-70, for that matter).

    There are some people out there, that will tell you, "Oh, load "X" grains of doo-dah, weebie-weebie powder and shove a 125 gr JHP on top of it and light up the world. It's safe in my gun!"

    They'll say that defecation, because they don't care, and don't give a crap if your revolver melts, or Ka-Booms, or if you lose an eye (or two)!!!!!

    Do yourself a big favor: Read, understand, and follow all safety practices and PUBLISHED data!!!!!
     

    Trigger Time

    Amazed
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 23, 2013
    1,234
    I'm looking for some 38 spl +P reload recommendations. I have the below bullets and powders to work with:

    Rainier CFN 125 gr
    Hornady XTP 110 gr
    Hornady XTP 125 gr

    Bullseye
    Clays
    Unique

    I will be shooting them from a 3" SP101. Also, if you have any 357 mag recommendations for the above ingredients it would be appreciated.

    The Lee 2nd Edition has some good +P loads with those bullets. I've only used the 125gr XTP with 6.7gr of Longshot @ 1060 fps with the same gun you are using.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    I read something yesterday which might apply but I found too advanced for me at this point>
    Something to do with the use of a Magnum primer?? I am not familiar with .38 / .357 M but do they use the same cartridge? The Magnum primer is said to produce ~5,000 more cup so how might that fall into play with making a +P load for a .38?
    If the .38 uses small pistol primers, reducing the powder charge and introducing a Magnum small pistol primer with a slower burning powder might ... well I do not know and am only throwing this out for knowledgeable comments, I am not trying it!

    I actually received a box of Magnum Small Pistol primers in error at a gun show this weekend and will be offering up for sale/trade.
    I am a fairly new reloader so I am asking for info not a chops busting.

    No chop busting. Magnum primers are hotter than regular primers. Some powders need that boost to ignite efficiently. The best policy is always to stick with published data and the components used in that data.

    I use SP primers in 38SPL and SP Mag Primers in 357 magnum loads. There are reasons for the difference.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    There is an article around, but I haven't been able to find it lately, that tested the same load with a range of standard and magnum primers. With standard primers, the pressure and velocity varied only a small amount. But in the magnum primers, some drove pressures up by a LOT.

    IMO, if the load calls for a magnum primer, use the EXACT primer specified, or start LOW and work up. And if you have to switch primer manufacturer, START OVER AGAIN.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,714
    Not Far Enough from the City
    There is an article around, but I haven't been able to find it lately, that tested the same load with a range of standard and magnum primers. With standard primers, the pressure and velocity varied only a small amount. But in the magnum primers, some drove pressures up by a LOT.

    IMO, if the load calls for a magnum primer, use the EXACT primer specified, or start LOW and work up. And if you have to switch primer manufacturer, START OVER AGAIN.




    Might be this article. It's the one I remember on the topic. It's also a reminder that there's a reason why load manuals typically specify the exact components used in compiling their data.

    Start low and work up loads. Component changes can indeed create variations in pressures, as seen below:

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm
     

    ironpony

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    7,229
    Davidsonville
    Making +P loads for whichever caliber would be generally how many fps faster than normal loads?

    I ask because this is the only way we have to measure our own actual outcome given all the variables. Right?

    I don't hear much about people using a chrony.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Might be this article. It's the one I remember on the topic. It's also a reminder that there's a reason why load manuals typically specify the exact components used in compiling their data.

    Start low and work up loads. Component changes can indeed create variations in pressures, as seen below:

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm

    No, this one was originally posted in one of the magazines and had charts of pressure and velocity for the same round, except for primer.

    One or two of the magnum primer pressure increases were EYE OPENING.

    I have just spent some time looking for that article again, but no luck. But what I found is that it seems that for some companies, the standard and magnum have the same type and amount of priming compound, and the difference is the cup thickness. But is some are like that and others have a different type or amount of priming compound, that could be the reason for the radical pressure differences.

    From the FAQ at Accurate Powder -

    17. Do Magnum Primers cause higher pressures than standard primers?

    Not always, and unfortunately it’s hard to predict and quantify. It depends on the combination of powder-caliber-pressure/performance level. However, in most cases the difference is small especially in the case of rifle calibers. In the case of handgun caliber certain magnum primers can cause higher pressures, however this is more the exception than the rule. Also the number of handgun calibers that really requires a magnum primer is limited to large capacity calibers using relatively slow burning powders.

    There are also sometimes big differences between makes of primers which complicates the issue even further.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,687
    PA
    Making +P loads for whichever caliber would be generally how many fps faster than normal loads?

    I ask because this is the only way we have to measure our own actual outcome given all the variables. Right?

    I don't hear much about people using a chrony.

    A chrony is a handy tool, especially when you start to explore some calibers that lack full power data. A +p spec simply raises the pressure limit to a new spec that is more reasonable with modern materials and designs, some really low pressure calibers can get a big velocity increase with lots of slow powder, some that are already fairly high pressure with small case capacities get a relatively smaller boost, it also can boost some weights of bullet more than others. You also have some data that is accepted as a high pressure alternative spec, but not neccesarily classified as a +p, original 38 super and 10mm loads were way hotter than most commercial ammo currently produced, and in some cases the original loads are reffered to as +p, there are some unofficial, but accepted high pressure specs for 45-70 or 45 colt for use in certain models(45colt Ruger data), or in the case of 45super it requires thicker brass(identical dimentionally to 45ACP) where standard brass can usually handle +p pressure even though some brass can be +p marked. At the low end a 147gr 9mm may gain a mere 50fps at +p specs with a 10% increase in pressure, but a 45colt might gain 600fps at nearly double the pressure in +p.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Part of +P loads is that many cartridges have been around for a LONG time, and factory ammo has to be safe in all of them.

    So the +P and +P+ were developed to put out a ammunition for a modern firearm, in good condition. Also expecting that this ammunition would not be fired in large quantities.

    The .38 Special round dates back to 1898. :)

    Good article on +P and +P+ -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/+P
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,571
    Harford County, Maryland
    While out of the realm of pistol cartidges, I was developing loads for a 10" Contender in 30-30. The use of magnum primers caused a loss of velocity compared to standard primers using the same components and charges of WW748 powder. This was statistically valid since identical number of groups were fired on the same day and all loading was done on the same day as well.
     

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