Oldcarjunkie
R.I.P
I would think the same, also given the sandy /dirty conditions, i would think the rifle would need to be cleaned more which would be hard when you have limited time due to fighting and resting for the next battle or patrol.
M-4: Is this rifle costing American Lives?
- Thread starter sskijr
- Start date
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I would think the same, also given the sandy /dirty conditions, i would think the rifle would need to be cleaned more which would be hard when you have limited time due to fighting and resting for the next battle or patrol.
Papi4baby
WWJBD
Maintenance is the big key here. These rifles are reliable, as long as they are maintain. Sorry to say, but that is the truth.
I forwarded the story to a Ranger friend of mine and he said the same thing. He said he has shot his M4 until the handguard warped, the barrel was so hot.
He said the M249 is also just a reliable.
Echo Victor
Active Member
running deer-
I agree. The gas piston and a 6.8 upgrade would be a step in the right direction.
I agree. The gas piston and a 6.8 upgrade would be a step in the right direction.
Jeep:
i am wondering if the harsh desert environment isnt causing them to even have a lower service life. What is the service life?
snavematt
say what?
its all Bush's fault didnt you hear
What kind of bush? The female Bush is causing this problem??/
I say just give them AK's...
...
Ultimate Member
we need to go to a short piston.
Papi4baby
WWJBD
I have several co-workers that were in Iraq, and several that still go now and then. I have asked, and they say they didn't have any issues with it. Im sure there are a few that are wore out, but that's up to the soldier to raise hell about it and get a new one, or better one issue.
Easier said than done. If the fine powdery sand got in there and caused excessive wearing, I could see the issue occurring.
The armorer is supposed to make the best of the situation, but if the unit has supply problems, which is most likely the case, getting pieces and parts from the US to the theater is the main hurdle. The air force normally flys-in the hi priority stuff. The items of supply that are low priority usually gets the Navy's slowest boat.
I'm hearing the same thing. I just think it's odd that we are hearing about issues 8 years into the war. Who knows how many rounds some of the rifles have down range.
saltydog
Thank You NRA
I saw a program on the (of all places) MILITARY CHANNEL where there is testing going on as we speek and has been going on for some time now to pick out the new latest greatest weapon for our Forces. One of the rifles (I can't remember which one?) showed promise over everything else that used this GAS PISTON. In every catagory it surpassed everything else to that point.
BUT. Failure occured in colder climates where the piston system locked up because of the extreme cold tempratures. The testors threw this loaded rifle into the drum full of water, and without doing anything to it al all immediatelu opened fire and shot all rounds without a hitch. They also took this weapon and covered it in mud making sure every inch was covered and packed in as if someone fell into a mud bath. Again, without a hitch it fired every round.
They fierd mag after mag of ammo. And when they stopped the guy shooting the weapon grabbed the barrel with his bare hands. It was nice and cool after hundreds of rounds.
I know it wasn't a SCAR. But I do believe it was made by H/K.
As for the AK? I have also seen where the AK is so poorly built and the clearance's are so wide they make for a very poor rifle as accuracy goes. And the biggest loss to accuracy was the crappy barrel design and it's mounting to the rifle itself. The barrel flexes so much the shooter is all over a target when holding the rifle still.
The piss poor thing about all of this subject is when my own Father was in Nam in the late 60's and early 70's (3 tours) he said then the M-16's barrels would get so hot they would glow red, and then quit. Why for the sake of our people who are in Harm's way did they know about this problem then, and our Fighting people are dealing with this same damn roblem decades later?
Hell, we have money to bail these worthless assholes out of being bank-rupt, but we can't start buying a bunch of these H/K rifles right fricking now to give to our people out in the field. They don't need to be awarded a huge contract, but buy 100,000 of them NOW. We may have 100,000 people in both Countries that do the actual IN YOUR FACE FIGHTING. Give them these weapons and save some lives of our most PRECIOUS COMMODITY, our young Men and Women who aren't afraid to take it to these Murdering shit-heads.
But they need something, and they NEED IT FREEKING NOW! Hey Obamanation......You just won over a Million for the Nobel Peace Prize for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING......Use that money as a down payment to buy our people some DECENT EQUIPMENT. You say your going to give it to Charity? There is no better Charity than to keep our people from dying right now the way I see it.
BUT. Failure occured in colder climates where the piston system locked up because of the extreme cold tempratures. The testors threw this loaded rifle into the drum full of water, and without doing anything to it al all immediatelu opened fire and shot all rounds without a hitch. They also took this weapon and covered it in mud making sure every inch was covered and packed in as if someone fell into a mud bath. Again, without a hitch it fired every round.
They fierd mag after mag of ammo. And when they stopped the guy shooting the weapon grabbed the barrel with his bare hands. It was nice and cool after hundreds of rounds.
I know it wasn't a SCAR. But I do believe it was made by H/K.
As for the AK? I have also seen where the AK is so poorly built and the clearance's are so wide they make for a very poor rifle as accuracy goes. And the biggest loss to accuracy was the crappy barrel design and it's mounting to the rifle itself. The barrel flexes so much the shooter is all over a target when holding the rifle still.
The piss poor thing about all of this subject is when my own Father was in Nam in the late 60's and early 70's (3 tours) he said then the M-16's barrels would get so hot they would glow red, and then quit. Why for the sake of our people who are in Harm's way did they know about this problem then, and our Fighting people are dealing with this same damn roblem decades later?
Hell, we have money to bail these worthless assholes out of being bank-rupt, but we can't start buying a bunch of these H/K rifles right fricking now to give to our people out in the field. They don't need to be awarded a huge contract, but buy 100,000 of them NOW. We may have 100,000 people in both Countries that do the actual IN YOUR FACE FIGHTING. Give them these weapons and save some lives of our most PRECIOUS COMMODITY, our young Men and Women who aren't afraid to take it to these Murdering shit-heads.
But they need something, and they NEED IT FREEKING NOW! Hey Obamanation......You just won over a Million for the Nobel Peace Prize for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING......Use that money as a down payment to buy our people some DECENT EQUIPMENT. You say your going to give it to Charity? There is no better Charity than to keep our people from dying right now the way I see it.
Todd v.
Ultimate Member
Just think of how many battles the M4 has won without problems.. And how many hits were made that another slightly more reliable weapon wouldn't have made.... Maintinance is key here. Also what we could have going on here is a shift of blame from piss poor ROE to an inanamate object.
Kevp
Ultimate Member
- Apr 17, 2008
- 1,874
Alright,
I'm gonna set a couple of things straight. First, the Military Channel is anything but and your post is full of incorrect statements, ones that need clarification, and plain BS.
1) There is no testing going on as we speak- it happened over a year ago. It was the M4, SCAR, HK416, and the XM8 (HK). At the time 2 of those 4 weapons (SCAR and the XM8) were proto-types which means they could have basically been hand built. The HK 416 has never really been in high volume production, so that is another gun that could have basically been hand built. These guns did not go through anything but a dust test, so how one could surpass the others in "every category" is an interesting statement. So the XM8 came out on top followed by the SCAR and the HK416. That tells me that maybe these guns have potential and should be subject to further evaluation.
2) The demo you refer to is a standard demo HK does with the HK416 as I've personally seen it about a dozen times. I don't think you know which end of a weapon a bullet comes out of because they shotgun the weapon and hand the bolt to a bystander demostrating the lack of heat transfer into the action due to the piston system. I have never seen anyone grab the barrel of any weapon after a mag dump. As for the water, a keen observer will notice that in most of their demos, they only submerge the forward portion of the weapon. The rear is problematic without drilling drain holes) in the buffer tube- tends to cause kabooms.
3) I do not want to speak any disparaging words about any veteran on this board as I am one, but guys in Vietnam had a thing for the happy switch (there is a plethora of video documentation) and when you have that, you have glowing barrels and weapons that stop working- it is called exceeding the recommended cyclic rate for the weapon. It is also called a lack of fire discipline by those of us in the "industry".
4) The President doesn't make weapon system acquisition decisions.
I will be the first one to tell you that we are due for a new weapon. I am a student of the piston system in the AR platform. What I am not is a guy that will state categorically that it is better than the direct impingement system because no one has done the full battery of testing required to make that claim.
What we need now is a decent weapons maintenance program with regular technical inspections (TIs) and replacement of parts at the appropriate intervals. Oh yeah, we need Soldiers and Leaders to become gun guys because it is only the basic tool of the trade and what is going to save your arse when it hits the fan. 1st rant done.
Papi4baby
WWJBD
That was the HK416. Some of units got them, but got pulled back. Supposedly they were having some issues.
Kevp
Ultimate Member
- Apr 17, 2008
- 1,874
Smokey,
You are making some pretty strong statements here without knowledge of the details of the engagements (i.e. phrasing your second sentence as a question with no ?) and/or detailed knowledge of the reasons why certain ROE restrictions are in place in Theater. For instance, mobile support is anything but in the Hindu Kush mountains- in other words, don't oversimplify the situation.
BTW- while I disagree with your entire 1st paragraph because you don't know what you don't know, I agree in principal with your last sentence except it isn't policy makers- it is leaders at the tactical level.
Splitter
R.I.P.
They made a hasty decision in the begining years of Vietnam: they went with the M16. It was horrible originallly for several reason. But the point is, they rushed it. They rushed the decision and bypaased some real world testing while making assumptions about reliability.
The problems with the M4 could come from several things. However, the answer is not to rush another battle rifle into field use. We could repeat the M16 lesson and go from bad to worse.
As an aside: don't the Isealis have a rather unique and dependable rifle? Could we buy/copy that at some point?
Splitter
The problems with the M4 could come from several things. However, the answer is not to rush another battle rifle into field use. We could repeat the M16 lesson and go from bad to worse.
As an aside: don't the Isealis have a rather unique and dependable rifle? Could we buy/copy that at some point?
Splitter
Kevp
Ultimate Member
- Apr 17, 2008
- 1,874
These statements are absolutely incorrect other than the HK416 part.
Kevp
Ultimate Member
- Apr 17, 2008
- 1,874
Wrong. The reason the M16 got a horrible rep in Vietnam is that the Army's logisticians decides to change the powder in the 5.56 ammunition without understanding systems engineering. Eugene Stoner designed the M16 as a system and part of that system was the ammunition. Unfortunately the weapon took the blame for this rather than the knuckleheads that changed the ammo. There is a lot of information out there about these issues.
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